Wildcat idea, the .45-300

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Meph

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Not too complicated, it's basically a .300 Win mag cut right before the shoulder starts to let it seat .458 cal bullets.

Advantages? Cheaper brass, cheaper rifle (than say, a .458 Win Mag), 450 Marlin performance or more from a very accurate platform, box-type magazine, capable of taking really long or even pointed bullets.



Here, see the similarity between the brass length and diameter of the 45-70 and that of the .300 at the start of the shoulders. The rifle only needs the right barrel, but even getting a barrel made or one reamed out and re-rifled is cheaper than most big bores, usually.

The end product would be, for me, an 18" or so rifle with a light plastic stock, running a new model 70 action with those perfect triggers (honestly, they're better triggers than most target rifles I've felt, I mean GODDAMN) that throws a 400gr Speer JSP at 2000ft/s or so.
 
This has been done before, or something very similar, but usually designed to be used in a levergun as they are quicker to use, quicker to load, can be reloaded with out removing mag. and/or round from the chamber. See 45/90, .450 Alaskan, etc. The one wildcat made for boltguns was/is the .458X2inch, and the only complaint with it is the belted case. A .458 wildcat based on the WSM makes a bit more sense as it doesn't have the belt.
 
ben hunchak said:
This has been done before, or something very similar, but usually designed to be used in a levergun as they are quicker to use, quicker to load, can be reloaded with out removing mag. and/or round from the chamber. See 45/90, .450 Alaskan, etc. The one wildcat made for boltguns was/is the .458X2inch, and the only complaint with it is the belted case. A .458 wildcat based on the WSM makes a bit more sense as it doesn't have the belt.
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I full well know of the advantages of a lever action. However i like the mauser-type action better, it's simpler, more reliable in any condition, can handle greater pressures, is more accurate. For the caliber we're talking about, I don't really see why speed shooting/speed reloading is needed, all that much - reliability in harsh conditions is a bit more important to me than a fraction of a second faster follow up shot, especially when very large, mean animals are involved. A bolt action is fast, quite fast if you're used to it. Detachable mags can leave you a round in the chamber and you can grab a fresh magazine for a faster reload.

The main reason I'm using the .300WM is that it's the most similar case that's the cheapest and most available. I feel a bit of the purpose of this wildcat would be defeated if one used a less common, more expensive case. I'd love to use an unbelted case, don't get me wrong. Would you recommend any? What about shaving the belt off the 300? That would work for me.
 
I had a .458x2" and rechambered it with 458 Win Mag reamer and now have a 458 Win Mag "Improved" - on a mauser action. Loaded OAL is 3.400".

The "cheaper brass" argument doesn't mean much here, as the difference in price between 300 Win mag and 458 Win Mag is not that great, and using the 458 Win Mag saves on the trouble of cutting and reforming brass, and buying custom dies - and its extra capacity is very useful, especially with the heavy bullets.
 
If going the chopped 300 route, consider the thickness and taper of the brass. Also, annealing is likely needed as the case body would be much stiffer then necks.

As was said, there isn't that much diff in price between 300WM, 458WM, and 450 Marlin.

Sounds like fun though.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
If going the chopped 300 route, consider the thickness and taper of the brass. Also, annealing is likely needed as the case body would be much stiffer then necks.

As was said, there isn't that much diff in price between 300WM, 458WM, and 450 Marlin.

Sounds like fun though.

Jerry
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Yeah, cases would need to be annealed indeed, thanks for raising that point.

I don't agree with the price difference, I can get 300WM (loaded rounds) for 19.99 (box to 20) where 450 marlin is DOUBLE that for everything I've seen and I haven't seen 458 for less than 60$ a box of 20. Also, rifles in 458WM are very expensive from what I've seen.

The way I see it, the Mod 70 is like 750$, new barrel/barrel work should be around 400$, and I've already got a few hundred cases of 300WM. Primers, powders and bullets aren't all that hard to find or expensive, as well as extra case - more common IMO than 450 or 458. It might be different where you live/as you have dealer prices (lucky) but in my area doing this will probably be half as expensive to make/buy and half as expensive to shoot.

Cheapest option would be a hot load 45-70 in a Marlin lever, but I am not a simple man.
 
Well you've managed to ignore just about every bit of info and advice given here, so good luck with your project. I'm willing to bet you a box of 458 Win Mag brass (very, very expensive), that you'll never do it though....
 
Meph, I don't understand why you would start with loaded ammo to make your wildcat.

Cutting up live rds is best described as a huge money waster.

I was suggesting you start from new unfired brass - this I can sell you without any issue and yes, they are all similar in price.

if you compare hornady brass, they are all pretty much the same price.

good luck with your project.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Meph, I don't understand why you would start with loaded ammo to make your wildcat.

Cutting up live rds is best described as a huge money waster.

I was suggesting you start from new unfired brass - this I can sell you without any issue and yes, they are all similar in price.

if you compare hornady brass, they are all pretty much the same price.

good luck with your project.

Jerry
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Oh, I'd be firing the loaded ammo through my normal 300 WM rifles, then using the once fired brass. It was never my intention to cut up loaded ammo, I was comparing the price of it (as I haven't seen brass around my parts in stores). What about the price of rifles? If I can find an inexpensive rifle and use your brass, then yes, I'd probably just be shooting 458 WM.

Well you've managed to ignore just about every bit of info and advice given here, so good luck with your project. I'm willing to bet you a box of 458 Win Mag brass (very, very expensive), that you'll never do it though....
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I haven't ignored it, I'm just trying to show you my justifications for this wildcat.

Also, from what you're all saying, I'm better off with finding a Siamese Mauser in 45-70.
 
My brother built a Siamese Mauser in 450/348 Ackley Improved and its a sweet little rifle. A tad faster than a 450 Alaskan and quite a bit more than a 45-70. Cases are easy to form and case life is very good.
I was impressed enough with it to have a Ruger # 1 made in that chambering.
Since it is only slightly less than a 458 Win. Mag., recoil will be "noticeable".
 
Kevan said:
My brother built a Siamese Mauser in 450/348 Ackley Improved and its a sweet little rifle. A tad faster than a 450 Alaskan and quite a bit more than a 45-70. Cases are easy to form and case life is very good.
I was impressed enough with it to have a Ruger # 1 made in that chambering.
Since it is only slightly less than a 458 Win. Mag., recoil will be "noticeable".
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Impressive! That's pretty much exactly what I'd be looking for. I'm thinking of a Mosin Nagant as a first testbed. 45-70 is really my preferred caliber, as it can be pushed to very nice velocities from a strong action, from what I hear.
 
Meph said:
Impressive! That's pretty much exactly what I'd be looking for. I'm thinking of a Mosin Nagant as a first testbed. 45-70 is really my preferred caliber, as it can be pushed to very nice velocities from a strong action, from what I hear.
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I'm not certain how suitable the Mosin would be for such a conversion as I know very little about it.
However, I do know the Siamese works very well.
My brother is building one in 50 Alaskan for me now.....looking forward to trying that. :)
 
Kevan said:
I'm not certain how suitable the Mosin would be for such a conversion as I know very little about it.
However, I do know the Siamese works very well.
My brother is building one in 50 Alaskan for me now.....looking forward to trying that. :)
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I actually got word that a lee enfield take that conversion more easily than a Mosin. I'll get my hands on an old, cheap Lee and have it rebarreled, throwing a new stock on it. I'm gonna get hate for making an "abomination" - 18.5" Barrel, plastic stock, enfield action, 45-70 - Well you know what? Haters gonna hate.

I'm going to have a hell of a rifle for sub 300 yard anything. Short, light, detachable mag fed... Good caliber, good action. Thanks for the input guys, even if I'm a bit hard headed, you've informed me proper.
 
Meph said:
I actually got word that a lee enfield take that conversion more easily than a Mosin. I'll get my hands on an old, cheap Lee and have it rebarreled, throwing a new stock on it. I'm gonna get hate for making an "abomination" - 18.5" Barrel, plastic stock, enfield action, 45-70 - Well you know what? Haters gonna hate.

I'm going to have a hell of a rifle for sub 300 yard anything. Short, light, detachable mag fed... Good caliber, good action. Thanks for the input guys, even if I'm a bit hard headed, you've informed me proper.
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Just curious are you sticking with your cut down .300 Win Mag idea or going to the 45-70 case?
I can see a Lee-Enfield conversion to belted rimless as being a bit of a money pit with pretty much no upside.
Mosin would be even worse but what the heck... Gunsmiths need to pay the mortgage too.:D
 
DOUGLAS D said:
Just curious are you sticking with your cut down .300 Win Mag idea or going to the 45-70 case?
I can see a Lee-Enfield conversion to belted rimless as being a bit of a money pit with pretty much no upside.
Mosin would be even worse but what the heck... Gunsmiths need to pay the mortgage too.:D
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Oh, I'd be using a normal 45-70 in the Lee. Rimmed. Same if I was using a Mosin.

Pretty much, this is how it boiled down.

The Siamese Mauser was my first choice. Made for a rimmed round, can be converted to 45-70.

Sadly, I haven't seen many around. So I thought, if I could wildcat a rimless/rebated rim case and have it work in a common mauser-type action rifle, I'd be happy. Again, you've all shown me how this is more expense and work than it's worth.

So plan B, until I find a Siamese, is a Lee Enfield in normal 45-70. I saw it could also be done with Mosins, I like those, but it depends on how easy/expensive they are to convert.
 
Actually, I don't think you can go wrong with a 45-70 regardless of what its made on. I have 2 and wouldn't be without them.
They are really easy to load for and the variety of available bullets either jacketed or cast is awesome.
 
kevin.303 said:
why not a P14/P17 action? easy enough to find, stronger then the SMLE, and more along the lines/profile of a Mauser action.
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Hello there. You bring to me an interesting option. Know anywhere that has them? I just need the action, really. The rest of the rifle can be damaged/cut up or something. From what I see, it would have to be a P14, as it seems to be the one that's made for a rimmed round. Thing is, I'm not going to hot load THAT much, so price, availability, ease of gunsmithing and Enfield magazines are a bonus.

I'm open to suggestions, though.

Thanks for all your comments!
 
often lots on the EE, look for the ones that BSA converted, they removed the "ears" and drilled and tapped them, usually set up for Rem 700 bases. the 14 will take .303 or mag bolt faces, the 17 standard face.
 
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