Doesn't even take an imagination to see the 35 Whelan would get the nod for on target performance at ranges under 300 yds.
will 200gr .30-06 give similiar performance as 35 whelen?
- Thread starter WhelanLad
- Start date
Nah, not chasing maximum velocity here at all.
thinking along the lines of how well the whelen lays the smack down on Animals, an would the 200gr 30-06 be of similar effect?
the whelen reocils alot less per say, cos its Alot heavier lol.
il definatly be tryin out the 200gr SP , with Varget for starters but may move into a slower powder pretty quickly when can afford it
it smacks em good an often thru an thru with big holes! more often than not big holes
200gr 06 i think should do similar given similar scenerios ... placement,distance etc.
It would definitely go through and through and I can personally attest to that from Elk and Moose I've taken with bullets of that weight.
However, the slightly larger cross section of the 35 caliber, along with the extra weight shed more energy inside the animal faster and with more initial force than the 30 caliber.
That doesn't mean it makes for quicker or even surer kills.
After all is said and done, how dead is dead?
However, the slightly larger cross section of the 35 caliber, along with the extra weight shed more energy inside the animal faster and with more initial force than the 30 caliber.
That doesn't mean it makes for quicker or even surer kills.
After all is said and done, how dead is dead?
- Location
- Saskatchewan
I like both cartridges, but your question :
I’d pick the .35 Whelen load every day and twice on Sunday. For the following reasons - shots where the animal turned after you committed to squeezing the trigger that require deeper penetration, or hits are on the humerus/scapula joint, or the animal is bigger than average, or any other situation where you need a little more straight line penetration, bone breaking power, or speedy incapacitation of game likely to hurt you or escape with limited ability to track them. The .35 Whelen with a heavier bullet at the same speed as a .30-06 kills just a little bit better. Simple logic, backed by experience.
I've used both, the 35 is a better killer within 300 yards. Not a huge difference, but there is one. - dan
If you believe that for some specific animal, heavier/bigger is better, the 35 Whelen is going to be your game. Where I live, most days I go hunting within an hour's drive of the house is grizzly territory - not just moose, elk, deer etc in anything from thick alder slides to wide open range. These days I generally prefer the 35 Whelen in my hands, the 358 Norma Magnum mostly gathers dust since then. Other days I have a 24" 30 Newton in my hands with 168 grainers on board where there's a much greater chance that a shot at game 400 + 500 yards could occur and be ethical to take. It doesn't take long to slap a heavy Bitterroot Bonded Core in the chamber if the going gets really thick. If it wasn't the 30 Newton it would be the similar 30/06 and I would be foolish to lose sleep over the lower velocity with the same bullets being used.
Nosler as one example shows the 30/06 has pretty much topped out with a 220 gr RN at 2500 fps. The same Nosler shows the 35 Whelen with either a Partition or Accubond 225 gr spitzer can leave the muzzle 300 fps faster at 2800+ fps. A Nosler 250 gr. Partition spitzer leaves the muzzle at 2640 fps - a heavier spitzer leaving the barrel still going about 150 fps. faster... and only using one more grain of powder to do that than the 30/06 uses for maximum velocities with the 220 gr. RN. And there's heavier 35 caliber hunting bullets beyond 250 grains.
That is what expansion ratio does for ballistics when looking at two different calibers with pretty much the same case and internal case capacity.
That's the theoretical that ignores differences barrel lengths and barrel condition between individual rifles. Whether it will result in an observable difference in the hunting field is up to the individual rifle owner to decide for themselves.
It simply comes down to personal choice based on what the individual hunter believes is better and prefers. Both calibers are an excellent choice for all around North American big game hunting.
Nosler as one example shows the 30/06 has pretty much topped out with a 220 gr RN at 2500 fps. The same Nosler shows the 35 Whelen with either a Partition or Accubond 225 gr spitzer can leave the muzzle 300 fps faster at 2800+ fps. A Nosler 250 gr. Partition spitzer leaves the muzzle at 2640 fps - a heavier spitzer leaving the barrel still going about 150 fps. faster... and only using one more grain of powder to do that than the 30/06 uses for maximum velocities with the 220 gr. RN. And there's heavier 35 caliber hunting bullets beyond 250 grains.
That is what expansion ratio does for ballistics when looking at two different calibers with pretty much the same case and internal case capacity.
That's the theoretical that ignores differences barrel lengths and barrel condition between individual rifles. Whether it will result in an observable difference in the hunting field is up to the individual rifle owner to decide for themselves.
It simply comes down to personal choice based on what the individual hunter believes is better and prefers. Both calibers are an excellent choice for all around North American big game hunting.
prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
The 30 cal should have better bc and sd however.
Yep, at some point it is mathematical theory.
That said, Nosler's 220 gr. Partition bullet out of a 30/06 has similar BC and SD as their 30 grain heavier 250 gr. Partition out of a 35 Whelen: .351 and .331 as compared to .446 and .279, using their web page. The difference in BC suggests if you went diving into their tables you'd find the much higher BC delivered flatter ballistics and more retained energy out at 300 yards and beyond. Probably a couple of inches less drop out around 400 yards and probably somewhere around 15 - 20% more ft. lbs of energy in favour of the 35 Whelen. The higher BC of the 250 grain .35 versus the lower weight of the 220 grain .30 means that it is never going to catch up no matter what the range.
Then we could dive right in and use other measurements of energy such as momentum that favour heavier bullet weights used in the old black powder cartridges.
If our real world hunting was confined to deer and speed goats, and maybe elk on the same prairie and hills, we'd probably never give the 35 Whelen and/or any bullet weight beyond 180 grains a second thought. Perhaps maybe if we enjoyed hunting with cast bullets...
prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
Isn't the 30 cal 220 kinda blunt? Run the numbers again with the 200 gr 30 cal. That one kills stuff right fast I can attest to that.
I Shot 3 Nosler 200 gr Accubonds at 2495 fps avg into a 5/8 inch group at 100 mtrs today from my 30-06 T3X- MILD load but Accurate ! just Playin . RJ
Im gonna Spice them up a BIT with RL26 and i think i can get to 2650 easy maybe near 2700 ! RJ
Im gonna Spice them up a BIT with RL26 and i think i can get to 2650 easy maybe near 2700 ! RJ
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rj, with your experience, you know as well as I do there likely isn't a game animal in Canada that wouldn't kill at distances under 300yds, likely even much further out.
A mutual friend of ours, now deceased, decided to start playing with heavy bullets at moderate velocities, after the Moose he shot with a 243 only flinched when the bullet hit one lung and blew up, and my 338 bullet at 2500fps knocked it down.
30 cal 200 grain bullets are mostly quite frangible and operate best at moderate velocities.
Albert, decided to upgrade to a 350 Rem Mag, which for him, was about as much recoil as he could handle.
Funny though, the next fall, we went hunting south of Ft Nelson and the only rifle we had which didn't freeze up was my 257 Roberts.
There were four of us, we took 3 moose and 2 elk with that 257 Roberts with 120 grain round nose bullets.
A mutual friend of ours, now deceased, decided to start playing with heavy bullets at moderate velocities, after the Moose he shot with a 243 only flinched when the bullet hit one lung and blew up, and my 338 bullet at 2500fps knocked it down.
30 cal 200 grain bullets are mostly quite frangible and operate best at moderate velocities.
Albert, decided to upgrade to a 350 Rem Mag, which for him, was about as much recoil as he could handle.
Funny though, the next fall, we went hunting south of Ft Nelson and the only rifle we had which didn't freeze up was my 257 Roberts.
There were four of us, we took 3 moose and 2 elk with that 257 Roberts with 120 grain round nose bullets.
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That 220 grain semi spitzer bullet is the only one Nosler has when using their online data for heavy bullets of that weight.
We can run other numbers using the same online sources for 200 grain bullets in a 30/06. Nosler gives about 2690 fps maximum muzzle velocity with a Partition. For Nosler's 225 Partition in the .35 Whelen, they show 2800 fps - a bit over 100 fps faster with a bullet 25 grains heavier.
The slightly better BC of the 200 grain .30 caliber doesn't overtake the advantage of the heavier 225 grain .35 leaving the barrel a bit over 100 fps faster until you get out past 500 yards - where few people choosing either caliber are likely to intend to be shooting at game.
At 500 yards the 35 caliber has a bit less than a half inch lesser bullet drop than the 30 caliber, remaining velocity for both is identical, and the 35 caliber has 200 more ft.lbs of remaining energy.
You could argue that the two calibers with those two bullets of the same model from the same manufacturer are ballistic twins out to 500 yards, with a theoretical advantage based on pure numbers going to the 35 Whelen. Then you could bring both SD and momentum values into your numerical comparisons.
Again using Nosler's data, the powder charge to get those results from the two bullets in the two calibers are exactly the same - but the additional weight of the 35 caliber bullet being pushed faster is going to result in more recoil if comparing two rifles of identical weight.
Expansion ratio, generally speaking when comparing a caliber using heavier than the usual bullet weights against another caliber one step up where with similar bullet weights in the groove for that caliber, is on the side of the bigger caliber.
For myself, I've been pretty happy with 168 grain TTSX Barnes bullets in the 30/06 with a 24" and 200 grain TTSX bullets in my Mannlicher stocked 35 Whelen with a 22" barrel. If I am going to be walking through thick brush in our grumbly bear country during hunting season, it doesn't take much to slip in a couple of rounds with heavy bullets in case things get exciting. We're lucky enough to be able to hunt everything from moose, elk and deer along with goats and bighorn sheep here, and those calibers and those bullet weights have been doing fine for me for decades. My 358 Norma Magnum mostly collects dust in the gun safe these days as I seldom feel that I would be better prepared if I had it in hand instead of the slightly ballistically lesser 35 Whelen.
I used to pursue maximum velocities and whatever bullet would give me the flattest ballistic curve back in my greenhorn reloading days in the early 70's. I lost that somewhere along the way after a few years and a few hunting seasons.
I eventually figured out that raw numerical differences usually don't equate to an actual advantage out in the field while hunting.
