Will a K98 or M1917 Action Handle a WSSM round.

[Skippy]

I was going to ask this question in the gunsmithing forum, but it'd likely just be lost.
At any rate, you guys will probably know these rifles better.

Could you rebarrel a K98 or M1917 action to one of the new WSSM rounds?
Paging Andy to this this thread

 

[Andy]

I do believe that the gunsmithing forum would respond, and you must be referring to a different Andy, but what the heck, here's my $0.02 worth.

There are three main things with respect to "Can the action handle it?" that you need to consider when rechambering:

1. will I be employing pressures that the action can handle (in this case no more than 60K psi IMO)?
2. will I need to cut away material from the receiver that will weaken it in order to accomodate the new chambering (for example with a long round like the 375 H&H)?; and
3. will the new round be larger in diameter than the one it replaces. Bolt thrust is a simple product of case head area and pressure? The 25 WSSM is a fat little bugger and will produce about 35% more bolt thrust at the same pressures than a 30/06 and 8x57 sized case.

So, IMO, if you keep to sane pressures (55K psi or so), and no receiver mods other than minor feed ramp mods are required, you should be fine. I would check headspace regularly though to confirm that you are not getting lug setback (a good idea for any gun rechambered or not).

Opinions abound on which countries M98's used good steel, avoiding ERA M1917's and the likes, but are never based on solid facts, rather lots of hearsay and "gunsmithing folklore", and I prefer to avoid those discussions out of frustration and a sense of futility.

 

[m39a2]

Either actions should be able to be modified, keeping in mid the above entry but, why? There are so many other "Modern" actions already in these chamberings that I don't think such a modification is fiscally viable! You can by a Savage in many of these WSSM rounds for under $1,000.00, why would you spend perhaps 2 times that money on building a rifle in this calibre?

Scott

 

[sunray]

"...why would you spend..." It's not always about money. You can buy anything ready made. but it's not the same.
Mauser actions have been used to build .375 H&H rifles, so the action will handle a WSSM with no fuss. The trick is getting it to feed.

 

[m39a2]

Oh yes, I agree, I have an SKS that I would have had to charge someone $1,500.00 to do the work I did on it just in time alone, but that was not my point. A very famous and very good gunsmith P.O Ackley said "Don't make something that someone else already makes for you!" I have no problem building or having built a custom gun, just some times the expense is not worth the effort.

Scott

 

[Claven2]

FWIW, if you MUST put a modern high-pressure round into a mauser, I would recommend looking for a post-ww2 action such as the commercial actions from FN as they have moderna alloyed steel receivers and no thumb cut, meaning they are heat treated to higher pressure limits than carburized low carbon steel military action are and the receiver will be stiffer due to the lack of thumb cut.

Be aware, the mag won't hold many rounds.

 

[Skippy]

THanks for the solid reply ANdy, it was indeed you I was talking about in my original post.

First of all I prefer the mauser design and feel.But secondly, and in this case more importantly, I thought it would be cheaper. I guess I'm wrong with regards to the price then? I'd hoped it would be WELL under $1000 to have the barrel swapped and the bolt head reshaped.

 

[Unsub]

For any custom work figure out how much$ and how long it will take and then double it. It is the little things that you never even thought of that kill your budget.

It is all about what you really want out of your rifle(or any other project).
If all you want is a good rifle in a specific calibre then get the savage but if you want something special that is not like anyone else's at the range by all means get something cool. Remington is actually selling rifles with yugo mauser actions now.

 

[Skippy]

I had noticed that they've got two M98's out of Zatsava(sp?).
ONly they call them the 798 or something like that.

Basically my plan was to put together a WSSM out of an easily available and cheaper action, as my Dad is thinking about getting one for moose. I guess the cost is probably prohibitive though (at the moment for me at least), so he might as well hold out for something factory made.

 

[tiriaq]

Getting the action to feed reliably might be an adventure. The actions you mentionned have their feed rails machined for specific cartridges. The SSMs are very different. An issue Mauser or Enfield is a cheap action as these things go. Either will also require a lot of reworking. A commercial Mauser has had a lot of the alterations already performed. Trigger, safety, bolt handle, drilling and tapping, etc. It may be a false economy to start with a cheap military action. Then there is the question of why use a full length action to build a rifle set up for a WSSM cartridge? If you are going to use a long action, why not take advantage of the length and use an appropriate cartridge?

 

[Claven2]

Ok, as a rough price guide using Ottawa area prices (yes, this is first hand knowledge and Andy will surely agree with these estimates, more or less).

Milsurp action in suitable condition: about $200.
Machine off charger guide and true up the receiver: about $75.
Weld on aftermarket bolt handle to approximate commercial mauser handle (as opposed to cheaply forging the handle and having it be too short and look like ####e): $75
Buy new barrel in WSSM caliber (remember - these WSSM tubes are all factory chrome lined to prevent throat washout!): about $500 minimum.
Have the barrel threaded, chambered, fit, etc. since nobody currently makes a commercially available WSSM blank pre-threaded for a military 98: about $200, probably more - especially if the smith doesn't have the reamers yet - which is likely since virtually no-one is getting these calibers on custom guns yet.
Drill and tap for bases: $50

At this point, we've looked at all the "essentials" in terms of metal work. We've spent over $1000 and we have a bare steel unblued gun without a stock that may or may not feed because we've not even looked at feed rails and bottom metal yet.

Now assuming you want decent hinged steel bottom metal similar to the Chinese made Charles Daly hinged floorplates on the 798's: $100 or so.
Making the bottom metal anf feed rails work together so the rifle feeds reliably: $50-200 who knows?
Safety that clears scope: anywhere from a $15 left side low swing flag to a $300 (installed) Winchester 70 style swing safety.
Trigger: $50-200 depending on type and brand.
Wood: a semi-inlet will start around $75 for the cheapest and lowest grade wood that will require lots of fitting, up to $3000 for fancy walnut inlet by a talented stock maker. The stock will make or break the gun IMHO.

Now we look at metal finish. Anywhere from $150 for a quick and dirty bead blast and blue (yuck) to $300+ for a proper custom gun polishing and commercial quality blue job.

By the way, we haven't looked at cosmetic add ons like checkering ($200+) grip caps, eboney accents, etc. Plus you might want a bedding job ($75).

Do the math, and then consider a new 798 already in a WSSM caliber sells for under $1000.

As has been oft stated, never build what you can buy.

 

[John Sukey]

NOW thats a very well reasoned argument for NOT trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
A bit like "sportyizing" a M1917 instead of looking for a Remington Model 30 which is the SAME gun done by the factory.

Someone once said its like spending $300 to turn a $500 rifle into a $200 one.

 

[Andy]

The question was not does it make economic sense, just if the action could handle it. Yea I know of many stories where a guy took an untouched $350 milsurp, put $300 into it and reduced its value to about $250.

That having been said, I've got Jason working on the third mauser sporter he's done up for me, so I know what it can cost, but mine all ended up as guns that didn't have a commercial equivalent, and I got the components over time on the cheap, didn't go for "pretty" (not that I don't appreciate that), plus (and this is important) I just wanted it, which excuses you from making economic sense if you go into it eyes open wide.

For a WSSM, I'd go commercial.

 

[agoetz2005]

My gunsmith and I have kept mostly to mainstream rounds in the mausers, however if you can find a good Siameese Mauser Action you'd be pretty well off. The Siameese are the only ones capable of safely chambering and firing a 45/70 of which I have shot a few.

That said here is my ground up custom Mauser on a Turk Action.

Full works, Everything recut machined square hand lapped and polished. Large ring action with Small ring threads.

Timney Trigger, Milled triggerguard, Douglas XX Match grade Air Gauged barrel @26" Hand cut and lapped trigger. Mueller Tactical 8.5-25x44 glass. Boyds Ace Varminter fiberglass/pillar bedded, hex head action screws, custom welded and shaped bolt handle, low swing safety, and Leupold Rings

Still need to Nitrate the metalwork and spray the stock, but first time out it held MOA at 100 yards with 60's dated spanish surplus .308 rounds.

 

[Andy]

Nice looking sporter, but this seems to have morphed into a Bubba thread and I'm partially responsible - sorry.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

The Horror, the Horror!!!...................

 

[Skippy]

Nice looking rifle, but this:

The Siameese are the only ones capable of safely chambering and firing a 45/70 of which I have shot a few.
[/IMG]

Sounds like hearsay to me. Any proof of your statement?

PS: I've officially scrapped my plans. IT'll be a few years yet before Dad gets a WSSM

 

[Andy]

Nice looking rifle, but this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by agoetz2005
The Siameese are the only ones capable of safely chambering and firing a 45/70 of which I have shot a few.
[/IMG]


Sounds like hearsay to me. Any proof of your statement?

PS: I've officially scrapped my plans. IT'll be a few years yet before Dad gets a WSSM

Not true. The Siamese is nicely set up to feed the rimmed 45/70, but there are plenty of mauser actions strong enough to handle the 45/70 and then some (the 45/70 being on the modest side of pressure and powder capacity). I have a Turk set up for 458 Win Mag.

But there I go again talking Bubba gunsmithing in the Milsurp Forum.

 

[Claven2]

FWIW, the Siamese is so desirable because the bolt face, mag and feed rails are already set up for fat cartridges. They are NOT inherently stronger.

As for bubba'd Mausers. here's my baby (acatually, I gifted it to my father when he retired last year):

Specs:
-1909 Argentine action
-Modified (heavily) 1909 bottom metal
-26" .35 Whelen Montana Rifleman barrel, No.3 contour.
-Boyd's trigger
-hand-carved and hand checkered black walnut stock, bedded.
-Gentry Winchester 70 style safety
-EAW turret mounts
-Leupold 2-7 VXII scope
-Fischer grip cap, engraved with dad's monogram.

In fairness, this rifle cost a few grand to have built and and at the time, Remington had not yet re-introduced the .35 Whelen to their M700 lineup, so a whelen wasn;t commercially available in a bolt action.

 

[Slimbo]

Gorgeous rifle claven! bravo!