Will IPSC Production Division last?

[tritium]

Well guys, what do you think? With the constant changes and incomprehensible rulings on which guns are allowed and which ones aren't, do you think Production Division will survive?

I think the IPSC World Body has succeeded in alienating some of the firearms manufacturers by not allowing certain guns that appear to have been made specifically for the division (Sig, CZ). I don't think that the spirit of the division is being lost because it has allowed many shooters to use Glocks, Sig's, Nork's, CZ's etc without having to put down alot of money to be competitive. Factories are offering certain mods to the internals of the guns and factory parts that will make out of the box guns even better (extended mag releases, steel guide rods in place of plastic).

However, it seems that the rules are largely unenforceable without a subject matter expert who knows all of the mods for all models and manufacturers, etc.

Would the World Body be further ahead in merely specifically limiting certain modifications or options i.e. no mag wells, no comps, trigger pull must be over 5 lbs for first round, no scopes, no single action only, holsters must cover trigger guard and at least one inch of the slide and muzzle (rules out race holsters).

Your thoughts?

 

[RePete]

I think (hope) it will live, because it brings more people into the sport who already have a DA/SA, striker fired gun, and and somekind of holster and pouches.

I don't have a problem with the current rules (or flaver of the day), but I think it's rediculous to say you can't purple paint your slide if the mood sets in.

I shoot standard and revolver.

RePete.

 

[maurice]

I think the IPSC World Body has succeeded in alienating some of the firearms manufacturers by not allowing certain guns that appear to have been made specifically for the division (Sig, CZ). I don't think that the spirit of the division is being lost because it has allowed many shooters to use Glocks, Sig's, Nork's, CZ's etc without having to put down alot of money to be competitive. Factories are offering certain mods to the internals of the guns and factory parts that will make out of the box guns even better (extended mag releases, steel guide rods in place of plastic).

It seems that manufacturers have gone out of there way to make specific pistols for Production Division. Hk had an option pistol called the production (USP), but the new rules would not allow specifically the magwell. So the rules were changed it would seem, to specifically rule out that particular pistol. :roll: Most pistols come with some type of "flared" magwell, so I don't understand; wasn't a desired end result of Production Division to keep price of shooting down, but also "encourage" manufacturers to develop better pistols? It would seem that CZ was also trying to adhere to rules, yet make a pistol that would be more attractive to IPSC production division shooters as well. I hope the WGA is aware of this (they must be), however, I can see the merit of keeping cost down.

 

[Quigley]

I find it intersting that Production...our grass roots division...now own the biggest equipment race in IPSC.

It's an expensive one as well...if you want to upgrade in Standard or Open...drop in a new barrel or slide...scope etc

In production...it appears that the most die hard competitors are forced to buy completely new guns...

However...I think it will survive and continue to be the fastest growing Division...but not because of the apperant cost advantage (which I never really bought in the first place)

 

[maurice]

However...I think it will survive and continue to be the fastest growing Division...but not because of the apperant cost advantage (which I never really bought in the first place)

To be honest, I would not have started shooting if not for this division. I am not into race guns as of yet. The cost advantage is not that big of a deal, I can't really say I would be saving any money (aside from the initial cost of an open gun), as going to matches, and ammo eat up my cash flow during the summer.

 

[tritium]

I think it is an awesome way to bring new shooters into IPSC and I hope that it will survive. I was particualry disappointed that there was dedicated list of guns which I viewed as a lack of foresight on the part of the WGA (seemded like a response to IDPA approved holster list :roll: ). I figured that the rules would have stated what was specifically NOT allowed in terms of mods, options,holsters and not what particular gun was not allowed.

I agree with Quigley that Production has become a huge equipment race and is a quickly growing division . I am also happy that I have seen many new shooters come into IPSC shooting what they previously owned (Glocks, Sigs, CZ's) and not at any particluar disadvantage either.

 

[Popurhedoff]

It will survive, as much as the teething pains are, it still is a fun and competitive division... Some of the top shooters are using Beretta's, Glock's, CZ75's, Norinco NP22's and anything else they can use.

I have fun :mrgreen:

 

[JB]

how can they call it Production when you are limited to a few Production guns from even fewer companies. I feel i should be able to pick any company and use what ever model they make as long as there been no modifcation done to it

 

[Slavex]

Production division was specifically created to allow a place for DA first shot guns to play. I don't totally agree with all the rules, but the vast majority of them are ok. The approved gun list is necessary to prevent one off's from being used, something which a lot of people are accusing a few gunmakers of trying to pull with a couple high end shooters. It does seem that for any large match, Level IV and above that a CSI team may be needed to inspect pistols and determine factory from non. But I think PD will survive as it goes through yet another set of growing pains.

 

[pmt]

It will survive, the rules will change, and change, and change. Of course it's an equipment race, all divisions are, everyone wants an edge. But a mag well for my gun can be bought for $75 instead of $250 for the Standard or Open gun model. Plastic mags can be had for a lot less than the ST/SV mags. Gun makers are now putting in match triggers, adjustable sights, & magwells for not much more cost. It's still an inexpensive way to compete, and it still comes dowm to individual talent.

 

[NaOH]

I don't agree with some of the stupid rules either.

Having said that I went from Standard to Production because I always liked DA pistols.

Production is growing fast and is here to stay.

 

[hungrybeagle]

Just to let you know, there are no $250 mag wells for Standard/Open.

On my Open gun, I use the Dawson Ice Magwell ($70USD).
On my Standard Gun, I use the factory STI Magwell ($45USD).

 

[Bartledan]

Well, I think the rules should be modified to cathc the intent of the market for production pistols, and I mean istitutions, IE cops and the like.

The things that make a good cop gun make a production pistol in the eyes of any manufacturer trying to stay in business. Things like a long, heavy and therefore (presumably) deliberate first trigger pull. Things like uninterrupted grip profiles (no mag wells).

The rules, IMHO, should be modified to allow one offs, if someone is that crazy, so long as the basics are covered, trigger pull weight and travel on first shot, max weight (carry), no mag well (another carry thing), no optics and no fiber optics (too lame).

It's not actually that hard.

 

[omen]

it'll live... it's growing really fast everywhere else in the world too, so there is really no stopping it.

 

[Slavex]

what about cops in the USA that are carrying 1911's with flared mag wells and fibre optic front sights? what about ERT/SWAT that are issuing such? that sort of defeats your arguments Bartledan. As well PD wasn't intended as an LE division, nor was it based off of LE guns. It just happens that a lot of LEA's issue guns that fall under the PD rules, but a lot also issue guns that would fit in Standard, and if what I've been told a few even issue guns that would fit into Open, complete with Optics (red dot sights) on them.

 

[Bartledan]

what about cops in the USA that are carrying 1911's with flared mag wells and fibre optic front sights? what about ERT/SWAT that are issuing such? that sort of defeats your arguments Bartledan. As well PD wasn't intended as an LE division, nor was it based off of LE guns. It just happens that a lot of LEA's issue guns that fall under the PD rules, but a lot also issue guns that would fit in Standard, and if what I've been told a few even issue guns that would fit into Open, complete with Optics (red dot sights) on them.

I absolutely agree with you, all that is true. I'm not making "arguments" or anything, just running it up the flagpole.

The hole in the logic is that if the only criteria is that it must meet the "production division criteria" and be "out-of-the-box", than anything must go, even factory one-offs... so long as it came out of a box. The guys who originally created a "production division" had to have something in mind, I just doubt it was a "factory" space gun.

The stuff I mentioned before has to do with a simpler, easier to design and easier to follow set of rules for what makes up a production gun not any kind of a treatise on what makes a good "cop gun". Ideally, there must be some set of rules which would allow the "approved list" to be scrapped, and still achieve the same thing, functionally.

I don't know much about this, so I don't know what that set of rules might be. What I'm suggesting is that the criteria for what makes a "production gun" already exists, in the dynamic between manufacturers and markets.

All the "mass market" pistols seem to be converging to some real design commonality, along two branches. Berreta, Sig, HK and Ruger all have decocking DA/SA guns as their top sellers, individual and institutional customers alike. Glock and clones, the "point and click" combat tupperware, seem to sell pretty well to LEOs and individuals.

When I read "production", I think "working gun"... that's just me, but this is just an internet forum, so all I'm doing is telling you what I think.

 

[Dragoon]

I think Production Division rules should be similar to IDPA Stock Service Pistol Division rules:

Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP)
Handguns permitted for use in this division must:
A. Be semi-automatic.
B. Be double action, double action only, or safe action (when
the trigger is pulled, the hammer/striker is cocked and then
released).
C. Be 9mm (9x19) or larger caliber.
D. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 39oz., including an
empty magazine. (Will be effective January 25, 2006)
E. Have a minimum annual production of 2000 units;
(discontinued models must have had a total production of
20,000 units).
F. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8”
with an empty magazine inserted.
G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the
magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division
capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine
capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine
plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the
same capacity magazines through out the competition
20
(Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use
that capacity magazine throughout the match).
H. Begin hammer down for selective DA/SA pistols.
PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):
1. Sights may be changed to another conventional notch and
post type (see “sights” in glossary for further information).
2. Grips may be changed to another style or material that is
similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips; see
“weighted grips” in glossary for further details).
3. A slip-on grip sock and/or skateboard tape may be used.
4. Internal action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as
long as safety is maintained (no visible external modifications
allowed).
5. Reliability work may be done to enhance feeding and
ejection.
6. Internal accuracy may be worked to include replacement of
barrel with one of factory configuration and original caliber.
7. Plastic plugs may be used to fill the opening behind the
magazine well.
8. Custom finishes may be applied.
NOTE: The slide releases and magazine releases that are standard
on the Glock 34 and 35 models are available as a factory option on
all Glocks available in the USA. Because of this, that type of slide
release and magazine release are legal on all Glocks for SSP.
EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):
1. Externally visible modifications other than grips or sights.
2. Robar style grip reduction.
3. Add-on magazine well opening.
4. Guide rods made of a material different from the factory part
it replaces.
5. Seattle Slug Grip Plug and similar weighted products.
21
6. A barrel of another caliber that is not offered in the original
factory model.
7. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for
further information).
8. Checkering and stippling.
9. Refer to Appendix ONE-A. Firearms-Non-IDPA-Legal
Modifications.

 

[RePete]

G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the
magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division
capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine
capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine
plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the
same capacity magazines through out the competition
20
(Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use
that capacity magazine throughout the match).

I think the mag rule is dumb.

If you can afford 10 rounders and I can't, then that's MY problem.

Having a 10 = 1 rule is fine.

RePete.

 

[MrFritz]

I think that it will survive, but I agree whole heartedly that the rules and approved gun list are a nightmare. I just don't know how to rewrite it.

I'd like to find some way to ensure that PD is a level playing field for the average shooter. We all know that the best in the world could win most matches in Open with a box-stock Glock. I'm thinking more about the average shooter. If we start off with a basic common Glock 17 (and I'm not advocating anything here, I shoot a Sig, feel free to pick something else) and use it as a reference point, any shooter should be able to shoot about as well with a Glock as with any PD gun. Sure some guns fit the shooter's hand better than others, and some may be manufactured to slightly tighter tolerances, but all in all I think that PD guns should be interchangeable plus or minus a few percentage points on someones score.

I don't know how to quantify that aim. One of the original IPSC principles is "4) Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical firearms and equipment. Any item of equipment, or modification to equipment, which sacrifices practical functionality for a competitive advantage contravenes the principles of the sport." It would be nice to see PD sticking to this ideal.

 

[tritium]

Okay, here's my take, it keeps growing and this is good but many of the guns are being touched up alot like Standard guns. I love the division and it's a blast... and good practise for us LEO/MIL types. :wink:

I've gotta agree with Slavex that Production has very little to do with LEO stuff... my duty sidearm is a 226R (not on the list and I've had the internals slicked up...alot). Still over 6 pounds for first shot but usually sports a tac light, rides in a thigh holster and mag well has been beveled out a little more (all not allowed in the div.).

I really disagree with the current pistol list but I really liked Dragoon's idea about something similar to the IDPA Stock Service div. To me, that makes alot more sense than a gun-specific list. Now, for those shooters who want to shoot a one of a kind factory gun...sorry...gotta be manufactured in quantities greater than 5000 per year. Specifically not allowed mods would be no mag wells, no scopes, no reddots, no fibre optics, holster must cover at least 1.5 inches of barrel and/or slide and must be worn behind the hip bone, no comps or comped barrels, trigger pull must be no less than 5 lbs first shot, must make minor power factor, min power factor of 130 (I didn't give this alot of thought but alot of the reloads, mine included, are like mouse farts and nowhere near a true factory load). I think alot of this is very close to Stock Service Div for IDPA.

So, we know where we want the division to go but how do we get there? :?: