Will IPSC Production Division last?
- Thread starter tritium
- Start date
My thoughts on PD are shooting an out of the box combat handgun. Some mods should be allowed though. You buy a gun out of the box and it doesn't shoot reliably you get it fixed no? You find it too light you put a bit of weight on/in it. I want a Titanium guide rod let me put it in. Why can't I change the grips so that it is more comfortable and fits my hand better? Maybe if you do all this though you end up with a standard gun?
And there in lies the problem doc. At what point do you say enough?
In my opinion, production should reflect what a double action carry gun would be, not what comes out of a box. That varies from person to person. Myself, if I was building a double action carry gun, it would have as light of a trigger as I could get it to go. It would have a fibre optic front site, a big notch adjustable rear site, it would be debured, probably different grips as I would want them to fit my hand, and a magazine wall. That is what I would except out of a gun that I carry every day.
In my opinion, production should reflect what a double action carry gun would be, not what comes out of a box. That varies from person to person. Myself, if I was building a double action carry gun, it would have as light of a trigger as I could get it to go. It would have a fibre optic front site, a big notch adjustable rear site, it would be debured, probably different grips as I would want them to fit my hand, and a magazine wall. That is what I would except out of a gun that I carry every day.
grassy knoll
Member
- Location
- Peace Country Alberta
what response would there be if there was a division called Stock Gun and everybody shot the same equipment? boring!
trying to dictate "real world" scenarios into this game doesn't make sense
make the rules of allowed and not allowed modifications without the list of approved guns and I think that would solve the problems.
trying to dictate "real world" scenarios into this game doesn't make sense
make the rules of allowed and not allowed modifications without the list of approved guns and I think that would solve the problems.
what i don't like about it, is that the RO'S and the match Directors don's check the Guns, and there is a lot of cheating going around, like reloading the bullets with less than the minum alowed and changing the slide springs so the gun can fonction, then the magwells, the skate tape on the slide etc....
i'm new in the IPSC world, and i found that the OR'S and the match Dorectors need to be more tough with the guys....
so the guns need to be at the same level (because it's production), but u ended competing against modified guns dosn't make any sense
i asked a freind about all the matters abouve and at my surprise he said :
"it's not a big deal if ur shooting a level 1 or 2 the OR'S will close there eyes but u need to be careful when u shoot level 3 and abouve ......"
i'm not trying to be an ass about it but i've doing sports and tournements all my life and i hated cheaters
cheers
i'm new in the IPSC world, and i found that the OR'S and the match Dorectors need to be more tough with the guys....
so the guns need to be at the same level (because it's production), but u ended competing against modified guns dosn't make any sense
i asked a freind about all the matters abouve and at my surprise he said :
"it's not a big deal if ur shooting a level 1 or 2 the OR'S will close there eyes but u need to be careful when u shoot level 3 and abouve ......"
i'm not trying to be an ass about it but i've doing sports and tournements all my life and i hated cheaters
cheers
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I would like to see Production division be:
5 pound double action first pull
no compensators or porting
post and notch sights (fibre optics? be my guest) (no electronics, no ghost rings)
no extended magazines
no major scoring
no race holsters
have fun
5 pound double action first pull
no compensators or porting
post and notch sights (fibre optics? be my guest) (no electronics, no ghost rings)
no extended magazines
no major scoring
no race holsters
have fun
tritium said:
I think things are ass-backwards.... the gun makers are the ones who should be dictating what get used by manufacturing whatever the hell they like.
You can't honestly believe that any manufacturer makes major design/production decisions based on what IPSC might say....
667 said:
Well to be quite honest, I DO think that there is a market strictly for guns related to IPSC... you can't deny it when you look at STI and SVI that have expanded their product line to meet demands with reliable guns for the US defensive handgun market yet they started as IPSC platforms.
You also can't deny it when you see companies like Sigarms and CZ come out guns with the X5 or the SP1 (?) which has all of the options that a standard division shooter would want... yes, it is a gun that would be perfectly suited to police/SWAT/military use but the price is far beyond what any quartermaster/gov't purchaser is going to pay (except maybe the tag on the CZ which is a great gun).
Furthermore, Sigarms admits that this gun will fulfill the desires of shooters in the European IPSC community.
Nice post Tritium!
Yeah, I think that Production will be just fine. It has taken off and not looking back. Some rules are a little questionable, but all in all, I think that they are mostly good choices.
For those that haven't been around IPSC very long, they may not understand the essential quality of "stifling" the rules for Production. When IPSC was very young, it was basically a "free-for-all" between competitors. Then, the divisions were born. And so ensued the tweaking of guns and rules to try to beat the next guy. If you allow modifications to a Production gun, you will open a very large can of worms. I used to hate the Production rules, but now I relish in the fact that they are very simple. Most of the problems lay within reinforcement of the existing rules. Quebec Provincials was one that was blatantly trying to turn a blind eye to the fine details in Production. Say no more.
There is also a political side to the Production Division. IPSC and USPSA have chosen to use two slightly different rules to control a Production gun. The most notable differences are: Specific gun model difference, Holster (no race rig in USPSA), and the trigger. There are guns that are allowed in USPSA Production that we can't use in IPSC such as the Glock 34 and 35 because of barrel length and trigger pull. USPSA has no minimum trigger pull for Production division. That opens a whole new world to tuning a Production trigger for a very light action. In the same breath, they won't let you use a Race holster such as a Ghost holster or CR Speed in Production. Seems a little silly to have a "tuned" trigger and a Kydex holster to me. I think IPSC rules are better overall to the intent of the Division.
I have shot quite a few different Production guns now, and I can't see a real difference for most people no matter what gun they pick. As long as they use the gun that feels good to them, and it works, then it is fine. I shoot a Glock in 40 cal for Production. Why? Because I had one. Is it the best gun? All my friends say no. Can it win matches? You bet your ass it can. If you don't believe me, then ask Dave Sevigney. My point is that any top shooter will tell you that 80-90% depends on the shooter. The rest is good reliable equipment.
So, does it matter if Sig or HK brings out a new gun just for Produciton division (and believe me, they do)? If you are a Master or Grand Master, maybe. Just maybe. I have shot them, and I don't think it is a great difference. Just my .02
Yeah, I think that Production will be just fine. It has taken off and not looking back. Some rules are a little questionable, but all in all, I think that they are mostly good choices.
For those that haven't been around IPSC very long, they may not understand the essential quality of "stifling" the rules for Production. When IPSC was very young, it was basically a "free-for-all" between competitors. Then, the divisions were born. And so ensued the tweaking of guns and rules to try to beat the next guy. If you allow modifications to a Production gun, you will open a very large can of worms. I used to hate the Production rules, but now I relish in the fact that they are very simple. Most of the problems lay within reinforcement of the existing rules. Quebec Provincials was one that was blatantly trying to turn a blind eye to the fine details in Production. Say no more.
There is also a political side to the Production Division. IPSC and USPSA have chosen to use two slightly different rules to control a Production gun. The most notable differences are: Specific gun model difference, Holster (no race rig in USPSA), and the trigger. There are guns that are allowed in USPSA Production that we can't use in IPSC such as the Glock 34 and 35 because of barrel length and trigger pull. USPSA has no minimum trigger pull for Production division. That opens a whole new world to tuning a Production trigger for a very light action. In the same breath, they won't let you use a Race holster such as a Ghost holster or CR Speed in Production. Seems a little silly to have a "tuned" trigger and a Kydex holster to me. I think IPSC rules are better overall to the intent of the Division.
I have shot quite a few different Production guns now, and I can't see a real difference for most people no matter what gun they pick. As long as they use the gun that feels good to them, and it works, then it is fine. I shoot a Glock in 40 cal for Production. Why? Because I had one. Is it the best gun? All my friends say no. Can it win matches? You bet your ass it can. If you don't believe me, then ask Dave Sevigney. My point is that any top shooter will tell you that 80-90% depends on the shooter. The rest is good reliable equipment.
So, does it matter if Sig or HK brings out a new gun just for Produciton division (and believe me, they do)? If you are a Master or Grand Master, maybe. Just maybe. I have shot them, and I don't think it is a great difference. Just my .02
I've got to agree with you 40cal!
I don't think Production will die but I personally would like to see a list of rules that are enforceable and are not solely up to the technical knowledge of the RO working the chrony!
I also have to agree with you that the Grand masters and Masters can pick up ALMOST any Production gun and shoot it effectively. I know that omen, 40cal, IPSC are all GM's (I'm an M) and we all shoot different guns with some commonality betwwent them...none of them are DAO!
What I also find is that when I shoot my STI Standard gun for a while and then switch back to a Production gun (Glock, Sig, Beretta), I can shoot the Production gun better! (Maybe it's a psychological thing but it works for me).
I have to admit that I have found that I can't shoot a Para LDA as fast as a DA/SA gun... it's accurate but I find the stock trigger pull to be too long on reset and take up (Dragoon should be smiling about this and calling me a hypocrite right now because a year ago I argued the complete opposite with him... Sorry Dragoon I was wrong!).
I don't think Production will die but I personally would like to see a list of rules that are enforceable and are not solely up to the technical knowledge of the RO working the chrony!
I also have to agree with you that the Grand masters and Masters can pick up ALMOST any Production gun and shoot it effectively. I know that omen, 40cal, IPSC are all GM's (I'm an M) and we all shoot different guns with some commonality betwwent them...none of them are DAO!
What I also find is that when I shoot my STI Standard gun for a while and then switch back to a Production gun (Glock, Sig, Beretta), I can shoot the Production gun better! (Maybe it's a psychological thing but it works for me).
I have to admit that I have found that I can't shoot a Para LDA as fast as a DA/SA gun... it's accurate but I find the stock trigger pull to be too long on reset and take up (Dragoon should be smiling about this and calling me a hypocrite right now because a year ago I argued the complete opposite with him... Sorry Dragoon I was wrong!).
Yes, you are exactly right about the Para LDA Tritium. And I thought the same things as you did before I really got into Production. I was wrong about it the LDA as well. It sucks!!
However, saying that, just give it to Mikulick (sp?) and see what happens. The Para is just like a Smith and Wesson "tuned" revolver. He would dominate with that gun, if not kick alot of butt.
Actually, I found that Production has increased my Standard shooting slightly. That was my intent to shoot it in the first place. I had become complacent in my day to day shooting. I never practice, so I just show up and shoot like usual. Kind of robotic you might say. Production makes you at least aware that you have a different gun and shooting style, and therefore parts of your brain "re-awaken" during shooting. I don't have too many parts left over so I must use the most of what I have now.
I now enjoy shooting both divisions. Never thought I would say that, or even admit to liking Production, but it has it's quirky good points. If nothing else, it makes you look for "A"'s instead of a hail of bullets towards paper. A good thing in my opinion.
By the way Tritium, you still wearing the official underwear for "Team Pink"?
Yuk, Yuk, Yuk.
However, saying that, just give it to Mikulick (sp?) and see what happens. The Para is just like a Smith and Wesson "tuned" revolver. He would dominate with that gun, if not kick alot of butt.
Actually, I found that Production has increased my Standard shooting slightly. That was my intent to shoot it in the first place. I had become complacent in my day to day shooting. I never practice, so I just show up and shoot like usual. Kind of robotic you might say. Production makes you at least aware that you have a different gun and shooting style, and therefore parts of your brain "re-awaken" during shooting. I don't have too many parts left over so I must use the most of what I have now.
I now enjoy shooting both divisions. Never thought I would say that, or even admit to liking Production, but it has it's quirky good points. If nothing else, it makes you look for "A"'s instead of a hail of bullets towards paper. A good thing in my opinion.
By the way Tritium, you still wearing the official underwear for "Team Pink"?
Yuk, Yuk, Yuk.
