Will the Sightron line of scopes drive down the prices of the competition?

Well, I ain't no expert, but to me anyway it doesn't really make sense to buy japanese components and have them shipped to Philipines (S-Tac Line) for assembly when you are already having scopes made in japan. The cost savings in labour cannot be that great. For one I imagine Japan is much more automated and precise, less actual people to pay, plus less #### for people to mess up. There would be more hand assembly in the phillipines, lower quality of work being put out, why jeapordize higher end Japanese components by having them assembled in Philipines?
Bushnell can put out a fixed power Japanese scope that retails for $190US, variables start around $250US, not saying these are the be all and end all of Japanese scopes, they are entry level benchmarks, get solid reviews, and obviously Bushnell sells ####tonnes of them and makes a profit. So my take is either they don't actually buy the components in Japan and these are just going to be "made in Philipines" scopes like Burris/Redfield Revenge/Nikon but at a ridiculous mark up as I see the MSRP is $1100+. Nothing at all on thier website under FAQ or About The Company that says where the scopes are made, or what components are in them...
Even the bottom line S1 lineup that looks pretty much like a rebranded Burris retails at about %50 more then a Burris. They are not doing anything ground breaking....they have scopes made at the same plants as well established companies using the same components. Dealers sell them at a huge markup over the competition by simple marketing, subjective comparisions ( ie...claims of my Sightron is as good as a Leupold mk4 at half the price) because they get a much larger profit margin compared to selling the well known established brands.
I don't really fault dealers for selling these and making bank, it is a free market capitalist society. I just think Sightron (and you can lump Vortex in there as well) quality of optics can be found already (for less $$) in a Leupold/Bushnell/Burris/Nikon if a consumer would do just a little bit of research and truly compare apples and apples.

I'll add to this and go one further....based on country of origin, the max $$ I feel should be spent on a scope before you start seeing diminishing returns.
China....$50. Seriously, crap optics. Bushnell Legend line is made there now instead of the Philippines....$200-$300 retail....insane, considering the old line was quite good.
Philppines....$500. Spend more then that, you ain't getting much for your $$ and should start looking at Japanese or US made optics.
Japan....well this is debatable. I'd draw the line at $1200 with Bushnell, some would pony up double that for a NF and that's probably reasonable...but I'd go US or EU for that kind of $$.
US/EU...only scopes I would spend $2k+ on and not feel like I was getting ripped off.
 
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Mystic Precision said:
Must be a little slow these days... enlighten us on why you think this is so?

And what do you think about the products given from your experience re SIII TAC lineup of scopes?

Jerry
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It's not an Slll Tac Jerry, the line is "STac". You're a smart guy, you know why the company is marketing scopes manufactured in the Phillipines. I'm starting to get the impression that if I sent you an NC Star with Sightron embossed on the side, it would come up roses. I'm a fan of the s3 and have purchased more than enough of these scopes from you and Peter to prove this. Regardless of origin, this Stac line is doomed to failure, as it's not even remotely close to what tactical shooters are looking for in a scope.
 
To compare an SI to a Burris is ridiculous, as the former is equal to scopes twice the price! MRest of post not worthy of comment other than won't be hiring poster as expert!
 
peterdobson said:
To compare an SI to a Burris is ridiculous, as the former is equal to scopes twice the price! MRest of post not worthy of comment other than won't be hiring poster as expert!
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Then prove it....you sell them, so prove to us that a $250 3-9x40 S1 is so superior to a Burris FII at $200 that it really is "equal to a $500 scope". Both made in the Philippines, both have the same "multi coated" optics, both have lifetime warranty, both have positive locking finger adjustable turrets.
I wont even get into that an Elite 3-9x40 made in Japan is $275.....for $500 you are into a Leupold VX-III, even a VX-II is $375.
I think its ridiculous that you would claim an S1 is as good as a Leopold VX-III.....I mean unless you are just trying to hype market your product....then I understand.
 
They do not have same lenses and we look through many scopes.

Do like the comment about Nikon, as I have D300 and fellow shooter is with Canadian Press and has the latest pro Nikon and fast lenses, expensive!

One salesman, ex Brit soldier, lined up Bushnells, Leupolds and SI and had customers look through to evaluate and 19/20 they would buy SI as they have to spend twice the amount to get equivalent.

Looked through an expensive American hunting scope and most would prefer less expensive SIIB.

Each to his own of course.

Regards,

Peter
 
derrick1978 said:
It's not an Slll Tac Jerry, the line is "STac". You're a smart guy, you know why the company is marketing scopes manufactured in the Phillipines. I'm starting to get the impression that if I sent you an NC Star with Sightron embossed on the side, it would come up roses. I'm a fan of the s3 and have purchased more than enough of these scopes from you and Peter to prove this. Regardless of origin, this Stac line is doomed to failure, as it's not even remotely close to what tactical shooters are looking for in a scope.
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Visit my website and see the scopes listed. See the many that aren't (some are because I hate websites but others.....) and those soon to be delisted.

I am likely one of the fussiest users of optics. The Sightron scopes I have used, I have used HARD and they continue to impress. There are many scopes brands I will no longer offer because I have been very unhappy with the slow but steady drop in quality vs costs. There is a whole lot more stuff I could sell but feel my customers are better served with certain products.

The new S-TAC lineup (of which none are available for review) IS a version of the SIII family of scopes. See the 1-7x24. Except for exterior knobs and markings, SIII based.

The SIII 1-7x24 is a superior scope to pretty much anything in this mag range. I can only expect that the S-TAC will follow in that lineage. AS for the 2.5-17.5X56 - no clue. None exist.

I don't even pretend to understand why stuff is made here, assembled there, boxed somewhere else. ALL consumer goods share this merry go round and the bean counters most certainly know why it is done.

Maybe it has to do with country of origin and import tariffs. maybe someone can apply a sticker 1 cent less. Maybe they just need to say "made in USA"

Maybe that is where the funky knobs are manf?

Maybe some country has a new factory that allows for better....

I judge the product by how it performs and we shall see how these new scope work out in time, whenever they actually exist.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Visit my website and see the scopes listed. See the many that aren't (some are because I hate websites but others.....) and those soon to be delisted.

I am likely one of the fussiest users of optics. The Sightron scopes I have used, I have used HARD and they continue to impress. There are many scopes brands I will no longer offer because I have been very unhappy with the slow but steady drop in quality vs costs. There is a whole lot more stuff I could sell but feel my customers are better served with certain products.

The new S-TAC lineup (of which none are available for review) IS a version of the SIII family of scopes. See the 1-7x24. Except for exterior knobs and markings, SIII based.

The SIII 1-7x24 is a superior scope to pretty much anything in this mag range. I can only expect that the S-TAC will follow in that lineage. AS for the 2.5-17.5X56 - no clue. None exist.

I don't even pretend to understand why stuff is made here, assembled there, boxed somewhere else. ALL consumer goods share this merry go round and the bean counters most certainly know why it is done.

Maybe it has to do with country of origin and import tariffs. maybe someone can apply a sticker 1 cent less. Maybe they just need to say "made in USA"

Maybe that is where the funky knobs are manf?

Maybe some country has a new factory that allows for better....

I judge the product by how it performs and we shall see how these new scope work out in time, whenever they actually exist.

Jerry
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Jerry, the stac scopes exist at this time and have been evaluated on other sites. They are manufactured in the Philippines, have no advantage over the S3 and look like a Nightforce knock-off. I am well aware of your optical prowess and with your past commentary, I'm a little surprised that you'd give an optic built in the Philippines the benefit of the doubt. Sightron had the opportunity to step up their game, but they completely #### the bed with this line....for a fan it's a bit of a dissapointment.
 
Let's see the links. I don't get excited about new products until they are available to ship to me.

So much can change from prototypes to first runs to whatever. I have catalogs with product that doesn't exist or was changed when I got it.

since I have zero experience with the STAC, I don't judge. when I get the product and can review personally, then I decide how I feel.

Remember China was the bottom of the barrel 20yrs ago. Now they are the top is so many arenas.

Cambodia, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia... the list goes on where top tier factories have been set up. Yes, China is outsourcing like crazy too.

Just open the back of any electronic device and be stunned at where the most modern and complicated of components are made. It is unlikely you will see too many G7 countries present.

Sightron is for better or worst, USA centric. They are offering products to fit what they feel is their home market needs. Some of which doesn't make a whole lot of sense but....that can be said for all optics company competing in the US.

If you want copying a great idea, look at any new car and their LED headlights. AUDI was the first and I still say, the best looking but every other car maker is now on the LED driving light band wagon to the point it is boring.

so for the STAC, I am unaware of any available for Canadian Consumption. If there were pre production samples put out to testers, so be it.

Let's see what SHOT has to offer.

Jerry

PS if scopes made in the Philippines are junk, why is Nikon rolling over most of the hunting market in the US?
 
PS if scopes made in the Philippines are junk, why is Nikon rolling over most of the hunting market in the US?

This was your sentiment not long ago. Everything made by an optics manufacture other than Sightron, March and S&B was junk. Now the Philippines stuff is good to go? Most of the tac shooters are using a Razor or HDMR for good reason and now that Vortex has expanded their Japanese-built Razor line-up and Bushnell is extending their Bullet-Proof warranty to Canadians on their Japanese-built Elite line-up; I feel it would be in the best interest of Canadians to deal with these companies. Hassle free warranty and returns in Canada are no-longer an issue, with Vortex and Bushnell.
 
derrick1978 said:
PS if scopes made in the Philippines are junk, why is Nikon rolling over most of the hunting market in the US?

This was your sentiment not long ago. Everything made by an optics manufacture other than Sightron, March and S&B was junk. Now the Philippines stuff is good to go? Most of the tac shooters are using a Razor or HDMR for good reason and now that Vortex has expanded their Japanese-built Razor line-up and Bushnell is extending their Bullet-Proof warranty to Canadians on their Japanese-built Elite line-up; I feel it would be in the best interest of Canadians to deal with these companies. Hassle free warranty and returns in Canada are no-longer an issue, with Vortex and Bushnell.
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Also, comparing a hunting scope with 3x9 magnification to a scope with up to 30 mag and up to a 100 + moa of internal elevation is unreasonable.
 
derrick1978 said:
PS if scopes made in the Philippines are junk, why is Nikon rolling over most of the hunting market in the US?

This was your sentiment not long ago. Everything made by an optics manufacture other than Sightron, March and S&B was junk. Now the Philippines stuff is good to go? Most of the tac shooters are using a Razor or HDMR for good reason and now that Vortex has expanded their Japanese-built Razor line-up and Bushnell is extending their Bullet-Proof warranty to Canadians on their Japanese-built Elite line-up; I feel it would be in the best interest of Canadians to deal with these companies. Hassle free warranty and returns in Canada are no-longer an issue, with Vortex and Bushnell.
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Remember the frame of reference. NF, Sightron, March and to a very small degree S&B are used by F class shooters around the world. This is a very specific end use needs and very few scopes do what we want.... even when they try

Japan has been a dominant location for superb optics for decades and unlikely to change.

Can other countries produce good quality stuff? With todays machinery and computers, location has little to do with end result. Now I am not saying that all products produced in all countries are SPECED well. BIG difference.

Some companies choose to build their scopes with varying degrees of quality. In most cases, don't blame the factory. Blame the brand that is choosing the components, engineering and production.

And do you know where all the parts for that made in Japan scope originated?

The scopes that I used have been manf in Japan... great. If the same products were produced in Hungary, or Argentina or Kansas.... great. The end result is all that matters.

So if there is a global push to move quality production to another region on this planet, bring it and the proof will be in the products we use.

Precious little has content from only 1 location anyways so which country do you put your finger on?

Support the brand and culture that suits you. If these other brands produce a competitive product to Sightron, I will be happy to give them a go. So far, all that I have seen didn't impress and that is not just for F class.

Jerry
 
How so?

I sense there is not a lot of love for overseas manf. I share some concerns but the change in tech, production capacity and ability is without question

Just do your own research into robotics, electronics, exotic metals, forming, fabrication, machining - whatever.

Then there is alternate energy tech, biofuels, automotive, even aircraft, etc, etc, etc.

Jerry
 
wheels said:
Really? Where do think the vast majority of consumer electronics are made these days?


I would like to see all the reviews of the S-Tac 2.5-17.5 as well... I've yet to find one.
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We're not discussing consumer electronics. We're discussing optical devices which can't even be manufactured with 100% reliability by the Germans while carrying a $4000 price tag, let alone some sweat shop in the Philipines.
 
I think we need to see these in person and put a few to good use before things are determined.

After a quick glance I was wondering the reasoning behind the new line though. White lettering? Great. Illuminated reticle? I don't care, but some might. Slightly diff zoom levels, I think pretty much standard Sightron elevation, .... Similar pricing... What's the reason for a new line-up? Looks?

I haven't spent much time looking at them but I was hoping for something new. Not needing "tacticool" but white letters are a bonus for me, but I'd like to see nice knobs with click and feel of existing, just slightly stiffer, looser parallex, great glass, and 100MOA (125 if they are willing to throw that in). Maybe a new reticle or two, but that's not the case...

Doesn't seem all that new. I'll try to allocate some more time to reviewing what's on their site.
 
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