Will the Sightron line of scopes drive down the prices of the competition?

[Mystic Precision]

I think this is a big mistake by NF, but who am I to say which direction they take.

"About the only complaint we hear about our scopes is they aren't cheap enough"
Is that seriously on their page? I refuse to confirm. That is likely the worse bit of marketing I've seen... ever.

Don't most (all?) Lotus' use supercharged Toyota motors now?

That line in the NF ad absolutely stunned me. Got to be the most stupid piece of advertising I have seen in a very long time. Let's see if they have banners saying this at SHOT. Now that would be a FUBAR.

So no, they aren't dumming down the product at least from the inference in this ad. No, heavens no... they are helping the consumer by lowering their prices not quality. AND I bet when queried, the response will that they have grown so much that their economies of scale have allowed them to be priced competitive without sacrificing anything.

At least I hope that is how the second half of that meeting went... You would have to hope that someone passed at least the first semester in marketing????

This is a perilous strategy for ANY manf. Many companies have tanked when getting into a price battle. Even worst when the "dumming" down is the way to improve the breed.

Better for them to start a completely different brand and do whatever they want there. Just like Chev with Caddy. Fiat and Ferrari. Krieger and Criterion.

Offering an "everyman's Ferrari" would be suicide.

There is no doubt that the Western consumer is working with less and less disposable funds. By all means, make the pricing lower but don't take the ship down with the dingy.

Jerry

PS Toyota is number 1 car maker in the world. They have won car races at many levels of competition. They lead the industry in various categories. They are a CAR company.

Ugly boring cars but at least they ARE cars and sell bizillions per year.

Isuzu made trucks and got successful making industrial trucks. Not exactly "bringing ###y back". At least they were smart enough to not use a diesel

 

[Mystic Precision]

"About the only complaint we hear about our riflescopes is that they aren’t cheap.


Nightforce riflescopes will never be “cheap.” The quality of materials, the precise tolerances, the skilled workmanship, and the need to withstand a lifetime of recoil make it physically impossible to build a world-class riflescope that is “cheap.”


But, we thought, perhaps we could make one a little more affordable.


One of the most difficult challenges we’ve ever faced was building a riflescope that is worthy of the Nightforce name in every regard—yet within the reach of a wider range of hunters and shooters who don’t need the “overbuilt” characteristics of our NXS™ series, most of which were originally created to withstand actual combat conditions.


It wasn’t easy. But we did it, by limiting some options, offering simpler controls, and using a less complex manufacturing process…not by reducing the quality of its components.

Welcome to the Nightforce 4-14 x 56 SHV™. We are confident it will outperform any riflescope in its price range. And frankly, many that cost much, much more.


All we cut were costs. Not corners."

Copied from the NF site..... never knew an aluminum knob can add $1000 to a manf of a scope? Why not make ALL NF manf less complicated?

Where did you cut costs? Made offshore?

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

I own sightron S111 and nightforce scopes.....and sightron is not worthy of being on the same boat!!! And never will be my friend,This isnt even debatable...you are spreading false info to make money and selling a peice of #### product compared to nightforce! Plz grow up

You love your NF. Good on you. Many others do too.

Before you throw too much cold water on what I am saying, take a little trip into the history of NF or better Lightforce and a Japanese scope company called HAKKO.

Interesting...

If Sightron scopes are such POS, why do so many shooters all over the world compete with them at the highest levels of F class competition? I certainly didn't influence them.

Interesting...
Jerry

 

[derrick1978]

You love your NF. Good on you. Many others do too.

Before you throw too much cold water on what I am saying, take a little trip into the history of NF or better Lightforce and a Japanese scope company called HAKKO.

Interesting...

If Sightron scopes are such POS, why do so many shooters all over the world compete with them at the highest levels of F class competition? I certainly didn't influence them.

Interesting...
Jerry

Ive owned enough s3's to know that they're in fact what you claim them to be. However, the s3 in nowhere close to being on par with nsx in terms of build quality or durability. My biggest issue with sightron is their move backwards with their latest line of third-world crap. Before the company could even establish a solid reputation, they start pumping out high-margin garbage. The initial reviews of the stac pretty much sums up my expectations for the line......junk. Nf's latest offering looks very similar to the stac...........I wouldn't be surprised. #### both these companies, I wish them both the worst of luck in the future.

 

[Hitzy]

It is likely already buried into product for final assembly in Japan and US and Europe. how many companies use 1 source for all items? You do realise that "made in anywhere" in the NA market has everything to with content vs actual country of origin/manf? And the box and instructions and scope caps count as domestic content if that is where they are sourced.

why was there such a booming number of Chinese Leupold MkIV knock offs? Didn't the knobs fit on real Leupolds?

CNC machines really don't care where they are set up and China leads the world in buzzing up alum afaik.

Jerry

So pure speculation on your part.....lol
While we are speculating, I'm going to say the all Sightron scopes and components are made in China too.....I mean really Jerry.

 

[wheels]

I see nothing wrong with the Nightforce SHV Ad, read it in it's entirety and it's quite obvious this scope is cheaper because it's not an over-built military grade optic.. they are going for hunter with this scope.

As for being made off-shore, I highly doubt it... If Sightron can make an S3 in Japan for $1000, why can't Nightforce make something similar?

 

[swissinn]

Ok, I'll bite on this one. Show me one with a comparable reticle to the sightron LRMOA or LRTD or anything other than mildot for that matter.

Speaking as a professional...not as a wannabe. The G2DMR is the best tactical reticle I have ever seen. And all of my co-workers agree.

 

[P of PDent]

I think NF new SHV 4-14x56 will be an excellent seller and we will/are ordering several. NF's biggest problem has been supplying product in a reasonable time frame, I was advised they are down to an 11-12 week build time at present. A year and a half ago they were on a 26 week build time. I think NF's thinking is that there are only so many customers at the $2000 price point while a significant number are available at the $1000 level...I guess time will tell if it was a good business descision. You will note from my previous posts that I try not to bad mouth products I don't carry as one day this could come back to bite me in the butt if that were to change (a good example for us is Vortex). Phil.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I think the NF move is a smart one and they will do well with this. If their quality of optics, support and options grow to suit F class, I will certainly take another look at the brand.

I didn't see value in the current NXS scopes. But these new ones are perking my interest.

The final thing they have to do is put these scopes on a diet. If the goal is not offer ruggedized scopes, loosing a bunch of weight should be easy.

Now maybe someone at Bushnell and Nikon will also take note of the market changes and improve their offerings.

This $1000'ish market is going to get very crowded and hopefully, with ever improving products.

Jerry

 

[caramel]

I am a die hard fan of Sightron i have 5 but now with the lowered prices of NF, my next one could be a NF, so i can compare them side by side to make my own judgement, nothing like a little bit of trial and error to know the truth... JP.

 

[SND]

Seems NF's SHV and the Sightron S-TAC are going for a piece of the Vortex market. This lower price NF won't really be competing with the higher magnification S3, different use for the most part I think.
Lots of interesting stuff this coming year.

 

[Shibby!]

Seems NF's SHV and the Sightron S-TAC are going for a piece of the Vortex market. This lower price NF won't really be competing with the higher magnification S3, different use for the most part I think.
Lots of interesting stuff this coming year.

I haven't checked pricing but I think both those listed are 1000+. Vortex are 1000- not counting the razor.


What would people's opinion be if the NSX suddenly became a lot cheaper?


I'd suspect a lot of pissed of NSX owners, but three times more happy new NSX owners and a reduced sales desire to have the ATACR and BEAST with the increased diff in cost.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I haven't checked pricing but I think both those listed are 1000+. Vortex are 1000- not counting the razor.


What would people's opinion be if the NSX suddenly became a lot cheaper?

Those that bought them at the over $2500 price will complain.

Those that buy them at $1000 will smile. Essentially, these new hunting rifles ARE NSX scopes. Tweak a little here and a little there sure (as suggested by NF ad info). fundamentally, they are the same so NF is moving their price point down.

Being cynical, I just don't think consumers care about country of origin, employement impacts, etc. If there is a product they perceive to want and it is at a "discount", they will gladly buy it.

The key to success is whether new scopes will perform as their brand suggests? A lot of sub $1000 scopes are a step back in quality and performance.

Jerry

 

[wheels]

Essentially, these new hunting rifles ARE NSX scopes. Tweak a little here and a little there sure (as suggested by NF ad info). fundamentally, they are the same so NF is moving their price point down.

I would tend to disagree.

Different turrets, most likely different internals, different power-ring, different ocular focus, different parallax knob, different reticles, is it even NXS glass? won't know until they are out in the wild.

One dealer on snipershide has reported that this is a U.S. built scope.

 

[bearkilr]

Those that bought them at the over $2500 price will complain.

Those that buy them at $1000 will smile. Essentially, these new hunting rifles ARE NSX scopes. Tweak a little here and a little there sure (as suggested by NF ad info). fundamentally, they are the same so NF is moving their price point down.

Being cynical, I just don't think consumers care about country of origin, employement impacts, etc. If there is a product they perceive to want and it is at a "discount", they will gladly buy it.

The key to success is whether new scopes will perform as their brand suggests? A lot of sub $1000 scopes are a step back in quality and performance.

Jerry

So by that same notion, Zeiss' Conquest line is essentially a Diavari HT?
Do you have inside info that the NF SHV uses the same parts/lenses/coatings as the NXS? If you don't, then it's just another one of your posts slagging every optics manufacturer besides Sightron, which you happen to sell and is currently the only manufacturer you carry(besides a couple of Weaver models).
At least try to be a little unbiased. Like Phil from P&D said, it would suck if you one day carry NF and these posts will bite you in the ass.
There are other dealers on CGN who carry NF, maybe ease up a bit on the opinions.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I am not slagging any brand. Look at the NF info which I have posted in its entirety. The ad is specific in explaining how it plans to keep costs down without compromising the product. Go to the NF website and read it for yourself

Read what I am saying not what you think I am saying. And certainly not what you think I am implying. If nothing else, my posts are pretty straightforward... certainly that is the feedback I receive from the many customers who read my posts.

Reread my posts without the prism that any dealer talking about another brand can only say bad things. My posts are either neutral or complementary on this topic.

Company putting in really silly text in their ads notwithstanding. And that line about pricing is simply DUMB>

I have already indicated I feel this is a strong and smart move for NF. Existing customers may or may not value the move but in the market place, it is a smart move. They may loose existing customer, maybe.... but they are opening themselves up to a market 100 times larger. that is a very smart calculated risk.

There is a massive chip on your shoulder when it comes to things I post. I don't slag brands without a solid reason. Like that or not, that reason isn't just ranting. You have your opinion and I have mine. I base mine on a lot of shooting and competing.

I was very interested in the NF line when it evolved and grew onto the scene. It displaced leupold and rightly so. Dig up very old posts and you will see that mentioned. But new options change the landscape on pricing and value.

Agree, disagree - entirely up to you but it doesn't change what is happening. NF has understood that and is adapting - smart and hopefully, this change of direction keeps them at the fore.

I have been very blunt on how I feel about the NXS line over the last many years. I haven't changed my opinion and I have looked at many many scopes. This new product and the direction it opens up will have a positive result for NF (pending they maintain the strength of this product).

At this price point, if the product is sound, could be very good value. Would I consider selling a quality product at a competitive price? Of course.... as I already do.

Competing in F class, there is always an eye to improving any part of our gear. We spend way too much money on incremental gains but to stay competitive, seems to be the way forward.

Optics are 1 of the most important tools we have. Do you honestly think I would not use the best for the job? Do you not think the many other competitors wouldn't?

We are always juggling and balancing performance vs costs - that is what I call value. Agree, disagree - again, entirely up to you but that equation is being debated in competition all over the world pretty much every weekend. Some products succeed, others fail.

So my opinion is based on my personal results compared to the results of many others I converse and compete with. It is most certainly biased but it is backed up by real world results.

An opinion is always biased.

Jerry

 

[Shibby!]

Those that bought them at the over $2500 price will complain.

I believe currently they are around $2200 with 56mm and zero stop. $1850 otherwise.

The ATACR is around $2800

IF, the NSX becomes around 1400-1600, this leaves a massive jump to the ATACR's 2800 price tag. New model to fill this gap?

NF knows there is money to be made if the product can hold a certain level of quality. The NSX has proven itself. There are very few options in the at 1400-1700 range. Problem is "cheaper" models, unless extremely solid and by far the best bang for the buck, can often damage a brands reputation. You won't see a equivalent packaged 1500$ S&B or other premier brand.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I would tend to disagree.

Different turrets, most likely different internals, different power-ring, different ocular focus, different parallax knob, different reticles, is it even NXS glass? won't know until they are out in the wild.

One dealer on snipershide has reported that this is a U.S. built scope.

If what you are suggesting is correct, then NF is moving in the wrong direction. I am going by the NF ad that they are keeping all the good but finding ways to drop the price to consumer. That is smart and that is good.

I will give NF the benefit that they are simply being creative in their costs to meet a competitive price point. By maintaining the "good stuff", but at a price more can afford, that is a great way to pick up lots of market share.

Let's see how the product actually ends up and how it performs.

Jerry

 

[bearkilr]

First off, this new Nightforce isn't competing with Sightron, as much as you'd like to think this is the reason for the newly designed scope. It's aimed at hunters, as NF says in their ad and I'd be willing to bet its aimed at buyers of the Zeiss Conquest and Vortex lines.
I have no experience with F class or what people use, but I see what optics different hunters use on a regular basis, and Sightron isn't among them. In fact, I have yet to see a Sightron being used by a hunter, though I'm sure there are a few out there. So outside of your post and the odd person mentioning them on the US "sniper" forums, they're a non contender in the optics market, as Phil said in an earlier post.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, it just seems that whenever someone posts a question about a scope, your opinion is that anything in Sightron's price range is of lesser quality, and the value in Sightron is even on par or superior with scopes costing twice as much.

I ask you one simple question: if they're so superior as you claim, how can they ignore such a gross oversight as forgetting the hyphen in the power range marking? To me, that's a major blunder/oversight and I find it hard to fathom that a company which is supposedly innovative and uses cutting edge tech could let this slip through? It's got Chinese sweat shop written all over it, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Mystic Precision]

I believe currently they are around $2200 with 56mm and zero stop. $1850 otherwise.

The ATACR is around $2800

IF, the NSX becomes around 1400-1600, this leaves a massive jump to the ATACR's 2800 price tag. New model to fill this gap?

NF knows there is money to be made if the product can hold a certain level of quality. The NSX has proven itself. There are very few options in the at 1400-1700 range. Problem is "cheaper" models, unless extremely solid and by far the best bang for the buck, can often damage a brands reputation. You won't see a equivalent packaged 1500$ S&B or other premier brand.

When I first looked at the NXS quite a number of years back, they were higher then that so their pricing has already come down. Chat with one of the established dealers to see what the NXS sold for 5 to 7 yrs ago.

My memory put them around the $2500 level. For NF to develop the low teens market is a very smart move.

Weakening economies really play havoc with product pricing and new products at wildly different levels make product planning a nightmare.

In my business, I just see a growing tolerance for the $800- $1200 type scope. Not a whole lot of discussion higher. If this represents the broader market, then all higher priced products are sensing the same change.

how they all react and adapt is going to prove very interesting.

The rifle makers have already made their play and the wonderful world of plastic fantastic is upon us. Consumers have reacted with record acceptance. Knocked that one out of the park.

How will consumers perceive optics? Is price the goal? Are features what will seal the deal? how strong? What to compromise on? What are these pesky off shore brands planning?

Is there a new brand going to hit the shores and upset the cart?

Stuff is happening pretty darn quick.

Let's see if there are any interesting announcement at SHOT.

Jerry