Win 70 vs Rem 700

Alfonso

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Which one is the better rifle for target shooting? It's for my father who is getting on in age but wants to go to the range with me for 100 to 300 and beyond target shooting. I'm thinking .223? Anyways, there are many on the EE that I thought I would ask first?

I'm primarily a mil. surp guy, other than for my AR system.

Thanks for any guidance,

Alfonso
 
One or the other with a heavy barrel would be fine. There are many different models of each, with the basic models being hunting rifles...those types dont make particularly good target guns due to heat and ergonomics. Find one that is a good fit, budget and style wise, and don't worry about brands, as they all shoot the same. I would also suggest Savage, CZ, Howa and Tikka as choices. 223 is a great cartridge choice.
 
Which one

The only reason I would stay away from Winchester, Browning, Ruger, etc.and stick with Remmy or Savage is that there are tons of aftermarket toys and improvements for the Savage and Remmy, and there are ooddles of shooters with tons of help and info for those two platforms.
 
Winchester did chamber the 223 (it was a push feed). I have four Winchester M70 target rifles and like them but I think Remingtons are easier to work with and will, on average, shoot better. Regards, Bill.
 
My Remingtons stubbornly out-shoot my Winchesters. My rebarreled and trued Remingtons out-shoot my Winchesters with the same treatment.
I actually wish it was the other way around, but it isn't.
 
Check out the Remington 5R milspec in .308. If your father is getting on in age you probably don't want to screw around. These things shoot very well right out of the box. A good scope, rings and Federal Gold 168 grain ammo will = a big smile on his face. It's the easiest setup to get going right away. No reloading is necessary to shoot sub .5 moa with these rifles. Just a good scope, and good rings. You may want to lower the trigger weight but that's not even necessary.
 
I have a Stealth II and a 700P, both in .308Win. Hands down the Stealth's fit & finish is above and beyond the Remy. Action is also much smoother. Unlike the Remy the barrel is full heavy profile which has next to no taper and accuracy wise it shoots as good if not better than the Remy. The stock is a lot more comfortable (to me anyway) as it does not have that annoying palm swell on the side of the grip.

If I had to have only one the Remy would be dropped without hesitation.

Regards,
 
Unlike boomer, my experience has been just the opposite, with my Remingtons outshooting my Winchesters every time. I had a HB Winchester in 22-250 that absolutely drove me nuts trying to make shoot sub-moa. My out-of-box 700 V in 22-250 shot under moa with practically anything I fed it. I do not care for the BDL type stock on many Remys, but there are plenty of options. I still have a couple of Winchesters, but they're rimfires. Eagleye.
 
There is a good reason why 700's dominated the Benchrest scene until quality custom actions were made.
 
I believe the Winchester is equal to the Rem in accuracy when both actions are given similar accuracy tratments. I happen to favor the Winchester because of it's bulletproof trigger and superior safety, CRF action notwithstanding. If I had to have a top shooting rig I would not buy either but instead invest in a custom action and barrel and start things right.
Good Luck
bigbull
 
I believe the Winchester is equal to the Rem in accuracy when both actions are given similar accuracy tratments.

They aren't...

I am not saying you can't build an accurate Model 70... that is quite easy to do..

But the 700 action is inherently more accurate than a Model 70 action. Benchrest shooters have proven that.
 
The quality of Remingtons has seriously gone down hill in the last few years...get a new Model 70 with controlled round feed...they are beautys!
 
They aren't...

I am not saying you can't build an accurate Model 70... that is quite easy to do..

But the 700 action is inherently more accurate than a Model 70 action. Benchrest shooters have proven that.

what makes it inherently more accurate?

I understand the advantages in the ease that you can true up all parts of a 700, and I understand we are talking BR level accuracy, but if you did the same truing to a 70, including bushing the bolt to hold it perfectly centered at lockup, what exactly would make the 700 more accurate?
 
I really like the Model 70 and I have built some pretty nice target rifles on Model 70 actions. I just don't think they are quite the equal of the 700.
As for the reasons, I think it is a little difficult to identify features which make or break the actions but I'll try.
Bedding surface. The 700 bedding surface is simple and on a single plane. It is round which may be a problem where the action is subject to much torque (fast twist barrels, rapid fire operation).
The model 70 bedding surface is complex, multi-plane and the base is located further below the centerline. The Model 70 offers greater resistence to torquing. I think the Remington come out ahead (mrginally) just because of the ease of bedding.
Concentricity: the Remington design is concentric. Although the Model 70 is more rigid, the Remington design might do a better job of transmitting forces from firing through the bolt lugs to the receiver. The fact that the Remington bolt lugs are slightly wider may also play a part.
I don't believe most gunsmiths do the same sort of truing operations to a model as they do to a 700 and some may not even be capable of doing so. If they did, the results might be closer than they often are.
I have a post -64 Model 70 which has been trued as well as I can do it (actually, all of my Model 70's have gotten the same treatment, with minor variations according to their intended purpose). The threads have been opened up to 1 1/16 inchx16 TPI (just like a Remington!), the locking lug seats re-machined in the same set-up and the receiver face trued; also in the same set-up. The bolt has been sleeved and the bolt face bushed. The locking lugs have been re-machined on their bearing surface. The action is bedded on a machined aluminum block which is glued into a Mac Millan stock. Theere is a skim coat of epoxy over the block to ensure even contact. This rifle has been a 6.5x55, a 308 and a 6BR. It has shot quite well in all calibers but has never quite been as good as I think it should be. It has been, in reality, a .4 rifle at best. At three hundred meters, I could shoot 200's but the x-count would never be over 12 or so out of twenty shots (this as a 6BR). 5 shot groups ran around .380 MOA. By the way, the rifle weighs about 14 pounds complete. I threw together a 6BR on a Remington 700 for a guy to shoot coyotes. I trued the receiver face and the bolt face and did nothing else. I bedded it into a factory 700 stock. This 11 pound rifle shot 5 shot groups also around .380. It made me want to throw rocks at my Model 70!
I recently shot a few groups through a 308 barrel which I screwed onto a trued 40X. It shot very well. Sub .3, mostly. (the 308's recoil causes me to shoot the occasional flyer) I put this same barrel onto a trued Model 70 short action and it now appears to be a solid .4 moa rifle. Now, in all fairness, there is a difference in stocks (BR for the 40x, Marksman for the M70) and scopes (36 on the Rem 24 on the Winchester) but I still feel there is a significant difference in performance which may not be attributable to these differences.
I have too much work in the shop to be able to do it now, but when I can, I'll try to run a more equal comparison. I can set two actions up the threads and headspacing are the same and stock them similarily. Maybe this winter.
By the way, centering the bolt at lock-up does seem to help the old M70 quite a bit. I got the impression it was good for about 1/8 moa of vertical improvement.
It may well be that the 700 got the reputation for accuracy, via the BR world, just because the 222 Remington came along with a Remington action and that action was easy to work with. Istill suspect the 700 has an edge though. That I continue to shoot some Model 70's is probably more indicative of a personality flaw in the owner than of the action's suitability. Regards, Bill.
 
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