Winchester 1866 experts needed

hans slayer

CGN Regular
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Location
Vancouver Island
I finally got around to taking some pictures of my pride and joy. It only took me 30 years. :eek: That being said, I was hoping some of the resident Winchester experts could help educate me on this rifle. It has been in my family for over 80 years and I inherited it from my Grandfather 30 years ago. For the first 50 years of its time in my family, it lived by the front door on a table as a desk ornament. Just another thing to be polished along with the rest of the brass. One of the weekly chores that my Mother had to do as a young girl. This was in a small town called Temby in the south of Wales. When my Grandfather passed away, my Grandmother shipped the rifle over to me as per my Grandfathers wishes. I was 17 at the time and had no real appreciation for what I had but had enough sense to hang on to it. Ten years passed and I decided it might be a good idea to get some idea of its value. I found a local firearms appraiser and he estimated its value at $4750 US (1993)

This is his appraisal,
Year of production- late 1872
Wood 75-80% minor scratches and dings
Replaced lever
Rear sight broken
Polished frame (that's when I found out this is a bad thing)
Brown patina on barrel
Original swivels
Gun rates very nice and clean
Serial number-1097xx

He offered to buy it from me but I had already decided that this was something that would be passed down through my family.

In the years since, I have stopped polishing the brass, even though this goes against my grain. I have tried to track down the history of this rifle but got as far as the Cody museum and was told that the records covering my rifles serial number were destroyed in a Winchester factory fire. The only thing I know for sure is that my Grandfather picked the rifle up at an antique store some 80 years ago. There are no British importation marks that I can see.

So finally, on to my questions. Can anyone shed some light on the history of this rifle and its approximate value for insurance or possibly refer me to an appraiser in the Vancouver Island area. Also any advice on maintaining this other than what I am already doing. ( Stored in a silicon gun sock in my safe with a coating of Conservator's wax)

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I am no expert, but I saw one at the Dugald gun show and the seller said he'd take $6500.
It was probably in a bit better shape than yours because it had the original patina.
Actually I thought I would have asked more than $6500, I think he might have been a bit low, but I did not examine it thoroughly.
Yours appears to be in excellent condition, but for the polishing.
I have one that's in the 163,### serial number range, but it's not in great shape.
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That is a really fine looking rifle and there is no law that says you can't polish it (much too late do do anything about it now anyway), if it is a tradition why not keep it.
I am not an expert but the condition of the bore would factor into the value for some buyers and I have heard that black powder can really do damage if not properly cleaned up after use.
Functionality of the mechanics would be important for some prospective buyers.
That is about all that I can think of at the moment.
 
That is a really fine looking rifle and there is no law that says you can't polish it (much too late do do anything about it now anyway), if it is a tradition why not keep it.
I am not an expert but the condition of the bore would factor into the value for some buyers and I have heard that black powder can really do damage if not properly cleaned up after use.
Functionality of the mechanics would be important for some prospective buyers.
That is about all that I can think of at the moment.

I'm no expert either but to my eyes, the bore is mirror bright with no real pitting and the rifle functions flawlessly. I rarely cycle the action anymore out of concern for breaking any old springs but it is very smooth. As good as or better than my Uberti replica 1866. The wood to metal fit is in a class of its own as is the metal to metal fit. From what I have read, the stocks were hand fitted to each rifle.

Just for fun I did a quick search for some ammo-
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/winch...nry-rifle-model-1866-rifle-carbine-musket.htm

A little out of my price range.:(
 
I think if it were mine i would remove the wax from the brass fittings and frame to let the air get at it and try to soften that bright polished finish somewhat. It doesn't look right being so shiney, and a few years of being exposed to air would go a ways to putting some patina back on it and make it look more natural. .
 
^^ Use extreme caution when buying fancy finished originals. I was at Cody last month checking out the museum and the curator said that there are few unscrupulous gunsmiths that make high grade forgeries(re-case harden, new barrels with re-furbished original markings etc) being passed off as originals which are usually for sale on-line or at gunshows.
 
With something as rare as a really nice '66, PROVENANCE and HISTORY can be very important.

With this rifle, you know where it has been for the last 80 or so years out of its 140 years since it was built. That is a lot more than is available for many rifles.

DOCUMENT everything you can. Get it all on paper, make your own statements where required, have them notarised, all that.

Personally, I do not understand this stuff about PATINA. I started working with/against PATINA when I was 14 and starting collecting Roman coins. PATINA is a surface which appears on metals as they try to protect themselves from FURTHER damage. It is made up of assorted Oxides, Sulphides, Nitrides and so forth which form a protective layer over the metal. They are not ordained by God and anyone who gets too anal about them should be referred to a coin catalogue so they may ponder the rather shocking difference in "value" between a solid-black or dark-brown "well-patinad'" Uncirculated 1858 cent and one in BU condition. NEVER open a fresh roll of 1921 half-dollars in a room in which you are frying eggs!!!!!

That said, the nasty part is that as you remove this PATINA, you also remove some of the metal around and under it. ALL polishes contain some form of ABRASIVE which cuts through the protective coating and exposes the shiny original metal beneath..... which promptly begins to coat itself with a protective coating of Oxides, Sulphides, Nitrides and so forth, depending upon the environment in which it is being stored. Polish the metal ENOUGH and you get a noticeable, measurable erosion of the metal surface, not even to mention a blurring and eventual removal of markings. Polish an iron barrel for 200 years and it is paper-thin, which is certainly was not when it was made; Besses suffer a lot from this, as the Army polished them with SAND.

This is a BEAUTIFUL rifle....... but I think really that I would clean her down nicely and then let her protect her own finish. Just be sure she isn't where she can pick up some ugly discolouration and she'll tone down slowly. In theory at least, you will have the best of both worlds....... until some anal a$$ jumps up and screams that the 1881 layer of patina is missing and he is CERTAIN that some might be disturbed in the 1914 layer and.... Scientifically, it is getting toward that point today.

Still, a lovely old rifle.

I have seen much uglier with 10 grand on the tag.
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BTW, I do hope you realise that your rifle has at least FOUR Special Order features intact:
1. Swivels for the Winchester Sling
2. Butt Trap
3. Cleaning Rod
4. Rear Sight
and I suspect rather strongly that the Woodwork is both Extra Selection and Extra Finish. ALL of these cost extra money and had to be ordered specially from the factory.
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Smellie, thank you for all your information. My knowledge of "patina" was very limited. I did stop polishing the brass many years ago mostly to stop any wear caused from the Brasso. Very interesting observation on the special order items. That is also news to me. I have recently picked up a book on Winchester collecting but haven't found the time to give it a thorough read. I did learn that a varnish finish was a special order which I think my rifle may have had. I also read that stock upgrades were marked on the left tang with an x. No such mark is visible on mine unless the stock needs to be removed to see it.
 
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