Winchester 1886 45-70 load report

Win 38-55

Win 38-55

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Gents, I'm a bit pressed for time, so haven't taken any photos and can't do my usual, more detailed range report, but for what it is worth, here are the results of my load-development trip to the range yesterday.

Rifle: Winchester Model 1886 45-70 made in 1890

Sights: Open iron sights, the rear sight of which is the ladder type with a wide notch a little wider than 1/8". I have trouble shooting accurately with this type of sight due to the fact that the notch is so wide that I'm never sure that I have the front sight post exactly centered with the top flush with the top of the rear sight. There is a way around this, as I found out yesterday on my 50 yard target.

Bullet: I had a fellow cast up 1,000 of them a couple years ago for me, before I started casting my own. I don't know what mould he used, but it gives a 405 grain plain base bullet.

RESULTS:

25 grains of SR4759, standard Winchester primer: 1,261 fps, E.S.= 38 fps
This gave me a 3/4" five-shot group at 50 yards, just one ragged hole. At that range, the target spanned the notch better, giving me the ability to perfectly center the front sight in the huge notch. Also, I aligned the top of the rear sight and the top of the front sight with the bottom edge of the paper, giving me perfect vertical sight alignment with each shot as well. The same load shot at 100 yards gave me a five-shot group that was 1 & 1/8" wide by 3 & 3/8" tall. This was my first 100 yard group of the day. With my subsequent shooting, I got a little better at getting that front sight centered and at the right elevation.

25 grains of 5744, standard Winchester primer: 1,272 fps, E.S.= 50 fps
Only one five shot group at 100 yards was fired, giving a nice, triangular 2 & 1/8" group.

30 grains of IMR 3031, standard Winchester primer, 1/2 sheet of 1-ply toilet paper as filler: 1,017 fps, E.S.=44 fps
Only one five shot group at 100 yards was fired, giving a 3 & 9/16" group. One shot was low, probably due to me still getting used to getting the proper vertical height of the front sight in that huge rear notch. That one shot extended the five-shot group from 3 & 1/8" to 3 & 9/16".

28 grains of IMR 4198, standard Winchester primer: 1,252 fps, E.S. 21 fps
Only one five shot group was fired at 100 yards, with four shots going into 3 & 1/4" and the fifth shot way out to the left, extending the group to 5 & 1/2".

No filler was used in any of the loads except for the IMR 3031 load.

On my next trip, I will try the following:
24.5 grains of 5744 with 1/2 sheet of 1-ply toilet paper filler.
25.5 grains of 5744 with standard Winchester primer, no filler
25 grains of 5744 with magnum Winchester primer, no filler
25.5 grains of IMR SR4759, no filler

2400 also gives good results, but I've got tons of 5744, thanks to a big shipment that came into Shooter's Choice in Waterloo, so I'll see what it can do with a little tweaking. Thus far, 25 grains of SR4759 may be the most accurate load for this particular rifle.
 
I think the larger groups with the 3031 and 4198 powders, show thes slower powders were loaded too light. 4198 isn't exactly a slow powder, but 28 grains is less than any I have loaded, with 420 grain flat base, in the Marlin.
My best accuracy with 4198 was up around 38 grains.
I got really good light load groups with 22.5 to 25.7 grains of 4227, usually backed with weather strip.
Cheers, Bruce
 
This may be a moot point, but when I purchased my 458 X 2inch wildcat, there was some loaded ammo thrown it as well.
Some of it was cast, & IIRC the 405 PB had 33.0 grains of IMR 4198 under it. There was a cardboard type wad though.

PS: Through a German K-98 Mauser.
 
Bruce, I agree. I want to get original BP ballistics out of this old '86. I know this rifle will take a lot more, but I'm content to stay with the old ballistics for nostalgia's sake. This means I'm aiming for something around 1,300 fps. I thought I'd try IMR 3031 just to explore the slower end of the powder burn rate scale. I was also curious as to how IMR 4198 would perform at these low velocities/pressure without a TP filler. I think you are right that if I increased the charge on these slower powders, it should give better accuracy. I did try 30 grains of IMR4198 plus 1 sheet of single ply TP a couple weeks ago. It gave me 1,464 fps and a five-shot group of 3 & 1/16", although I was even less used to that huge v-notch then. Anyway, 1,464 fps is way too fast for what I want to achieve. I also tried 40 grains of IMR3031 with cream of wheat filler, which gave me 1,534 fps but I strongly recommend no one try this, as I only fired five rounds, then took the other five apart to find that the COW filler had hardened into a much too thick chunk. I could be wrong, but I think this is dangerous. TP filler is mostly airspace and does a similar job at a much lower pressure.

21 grains of 2400 gave me a five shot group at 100 yards of 2 & 5/16". I can see your load of IMR4227 with filler doing very well, as its burn rate is about identical to 5744.
 
Good idea to stay away from the cream of wheat as a filler. There is a recent post in the Gunsmithing forum where a guy used corn meal and destroyed a 98 Mauser action. A considerably stronger action than an 1886.
 
I was looking at an old load from Lyman Cast bullets for SR4759 mentioned dacron wad.

did you get the 25 grains from a book as I'm looking for a load for that for a trapdoor springfield
 
Ken Waters lists 25 grains of SR4759 as a safe load for a Trapdoor rifle under a 393 grain cast bullet in his Pet Loads book.
 
Mike Webb said:
Good idea to stay away from the cream of wheat as a filler. There is a recent post in the Gunsmithing forum where a guy used corn meal and destroyed a 98 Mauser action. A considerably stronger action than an 1886.
Click to expand...
Mike, I'd really like to find out more. I couldn't find the thread in the Gunsmithing forum even with an advanced search. Do you recall the title of the post, or the key word in the thread title?
 
I have an earlier copy of the Lyman book of cast bullets and they say nothing about filler.
With a 400 grain flat base, bullet # 457124, they show 4198 to as low as 23 grains, for 1210, but this book says nothing about accuracy. They show 22 grains of 2400 for 1175 fps and a max of 25 grains for 1465.
In the earlier 1940s I hunted with a Springfield Trapdoor. No ammunition was made for the 45-70 for quite a few years and I think I was down to either one or two shells. A neighbor said if I came to his place he would give me some. I was there in record time and he gave me two boxes, each one nearly full, of Winchester jacketed 405 grain bullets. One of them went through an elk at a 45 degree angle, but unfortuneatly, it was an older brother who shot it.
There are at least three different Winchester headstamps and I still have twenty some left. Not sure when they quit making 45-70 back then, but probably in about the mid 1930s.
Kirk, next time you are coming by my house, give me a shout and I'll give you a couple!
 
H4831 said:
Kirk, next time you are coming by my house, give me a shout and I'll give you a couple!
Click to expand...
That might be a while, since you must be at least 4,000 km away, but I'd sure love to find out what those old cartridges chronograph at.
 
I have Gun Digest 1973, and there is one chapter entitled, The 45-70-A Century Later, by Frank C. Barnes.
There is at least two references for factory Winchester 405 grain soft point. Both at just over 1300 fps.
 
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It's in the Gunsmithing forum under Santa Barbara Magnum Mauser actions, Any Good?
Second page, not a whole lot of details, mostly a damage report. Pretty scary though, locking lugs sheared off and the like.
 
Thanks, Mike. I took a look and found, to my amazement, that the fellow had used corn meal filler in a 243. I strongly recommend never using cornmeal filler in straight walled cases due to it turning into cement, but putting corn meal or cream of wheat filler in a bottle neck case is pretty much a guarantee of a blow-up. Filler of any kind in a bottle neck case is asking for big trouble. On the other hand, I have no problems using toilet paper filler in straight walled cases with medium to slow burning powders (IMR 4227 and 5744 and slower) and moderate to light loads. The toilet paper, loosely rolled and folded and inserted 'legs' end first, is highly compressible upon firing and consists mostly of airspace (assuming you use the minimum amount of single ply to just span the space between the top of the powder and the bottom of the bullet). I have used TP in a variety of cartridges invented during the BP era, and in vintage Winchesters of a variety of models and calibers. It does make reloading a bit slower, however, so I try to find a load that does not require TP filler.
 
Win 38-55 said:
Bruce, I agree. I want to get original BP ballistics out of this old '86. I know this rifle will take a lot more, but I'm content to stay with the old ballistics for nostalgia's sake. This means I'm aiming for something around 1,300 fps. I thought I'd try IMR 3031 just to explore the slower end of the powder burn rate scale. I was also curious as to how IMR 4198 would perform at these low velocities/pressure without a TP filler. I think you are right that if I increased the charge on these slower powders, it should give better accuracy. I did try 30 grains of IMR4198 plus 1 sheet of single ply TP a couple weeks ago. It gave me 1,464 fps and a five-shot group of 3 & 1/16", although I was even less used to that huge v-notch then. Anyway, 1,464 fps is way too fast for what I want to achieve. I also tried 40 grains of IMR3031 with cream of wheat filler, which gave me 1,534 fps but I strongly recommend no one try this, as I only fired five rounds, then took the other five apart to find that the COW filler had hardened into a much too thick chunk. I could be wrong, but I think this is dangerous. TP filler is mostly airspace and does a similar job at a much lower pressure.

21 grains of 2400 gave me a five shot group at 100 yards of 2 & 5/16". I can see your load of IMR4227 with filler doing very well, as its burn rate is about identical to 5744.
Click to expand...
I agree that the action of your rifle may take a lot more, but the barrel may not take a great amount. 1890, it won't be proved for smokeless loads.
I'd stay with the BP load pressure area too.
Myself, I'm partial to Rel7, and H4198, but I use dacron for filler. (quilt batting) when I'm not filling the case, and you won't be.
How much? Fill the case, then compress it with the bullet.
You should of course add the weight of the dacron to your projectile weight for load calculation purposes.
But I suspect the safety margin in your case, is huge.
My 1886 is from the late 1920's, and has a new Douglas premium barrel, so I can play with loads that are 'just a tad' warmer. ;)
 
Win 38-55 said:
That might be a while, since you must be at least 4,000 km away, but I'd sure love to find out what those old cartridges chronograph at.
Click to expand...

Yes, I always wondered what those old Winchester 405 jacketed were travelling at, also, but I do not now have a chronograph.
In the Reloaders Digest issue of a few years ago, where they have a feature length article on the 45-70 in Marlin rifles, they have quite a secion on loads within the pressure range of the Springfield Trapdoors.
If anyone wants to see it, tell me and I will post a copy.
And 38-55, everybody comes to BC sooner or later, so just wondered when your turn would be!
 
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