Winchester 1886: 45-90: Express Barrel Twist Range Results, 405 vs 300

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Figured some folks might find this interesting since there's been several threads on the 1886 winchester over the past several months:

It is true that Winchester 1886's, chambered in .45-90, had a slower rate of twist intended for Winchester's "Express" load of the day, featuring a 300 grain bullet (aka the "45-90-300").

What is less settled though is "how much of a difference does it make?". Obviously many many factors at play here (velocity, powder, bullet design, actual bearing surface, which direction your dog is facing on February 12, etc etc) but I figured I'd try out the general truth of the idea that "shorter bullets are more stable" in this rifle and chambering. Many folks report good results in the '86 with heavier bullets, so take this with a grain of salt. It is entirely possible some had faster twists as well...Mine left the factory in 1889.

I screwed up accuracy part of the test by resting all my 300's; apparently my rest set up today was skewing my accuracy because offhand my groups tightened up by probably 200%.... unfortunately I only fired the last five offhand...you can see those all nicely in the center of the target in the picture below... They are all LFNs.

But as far as stabilizing goes, you can see the difference. Velocity (based on my loads, sorry didn't bring a chrony) should be Close; the 300's all printed nice round holes; but EVERY 405 was elongated (ten of each). That to me is a significant difference. Your mileage will vary depending on many factors but for myself I'm focusing on loads for the 300 grain bullets at least for this rifle and barrel.



I messed up the picture a bit, but you get the idea.
NCBB

 

[dirtybarry]

Very interesting, what powder and how much of it did you use?

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Very interesting, what powder and how much of it did you use?

PM'd ya.

 

[ken1989]

Were you shooting cast or jacketed bullets?

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Were you shooting cast or jacketed bullets?

Cast (LFN) on both counts.

 

[Highwind]

Thanks for sharing your group. I'm assuming that you were using an older 1886 in 45-90. Where you able to identify your twist rate for the barrel...? And from a velocity point - what is the difference between the 45-70 and 45-90...?

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Thanks for sharing your group. I'm assuming that you were using an older 1886 in 45-90. Where you able to identify your twist rate for the barrel...? And from a velocity point - what is the difference between the 45-70 and 45-90...?

Yes, DOM 1889 and it seems to be the advertised 1:32" rate of twist.

For blackpowder, the advertised velocity gains between the two are in the hundreds of fps, depending on who you read and what they are comparing (bullet weights, loads...etc). I need a chronograph so I can't give you any first hand observations on that point.

 

[Win 38-55]

I always find these kind of tests fascinating. Thanks for posting. I might need to go to bed, but I can't see the range stated anywhere at this hour of the night. What was the range?

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

I always find these kind of tests fascinating. Thanks for posting. I might need to go to bed, but I can't see the range stated anywhere at this hour of the night. What was the range?

Right a key piece of info - 50 yards (any further its just a blur even with my glasses on).

By 100 yards the 405s are tumbling pretty well but still ring gongs. But so far the 300s (and I just got a couple hundred 315s from jethunter) are stable. Quite interesting

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Just a quick update; I just today tried out loads at 50 and 100 yards with Jethunter's 315gr GC - beautiful! No tumbling, no keyholing, perfect round holes with grease rings. They appear identical at 50 yards and 100 yards. Again the 405 cast would be pretty well sideways at 100 so this is a significant change for the better.

All offhand shooting; All my 3-shot groups were about 1" at 50 yards and considering offhand; open sights; my vision; and the sewer pipe bore, I'm happy with that today; I am confident I can shrink those down too with some judicious loading and a reasonable rest.

At 100 yards frankly the target is so hard to see, I was happy that all my holes were simply on or touching the 8.5x11" target - I can certainly do better and I'll work on that. I am going to set up a tang sight eventually and go after gongs.

Might not bother rebarrelling this old girl after all...certainly not any time soon anyway. I'll probably just end up shooting steel with it so whether it's 1" or 6" at 200 yards really doesn't mean much at that point. I'll get it as good as possible, at any rate.

 

[mooncoon]

. I need a chronograph so I can't give you any first hand observations on that point.

While it does not give you velocity, it does allow you to compare it in a round about way. I tried shooting through a series of short pieces of 2x6" wood some years ago. I had a 1:48 twist muzzle loader that was fussy about powder charge. I speculated that the most accurate loads of black powder were because of achieving the same velocity. Definitely no true. In my gun, with .530 patched round ball, 55 grains of 3F and 80 grains of 2 F were my most accurate loads. The ball with 3F powder went through 2 pieces of wood and deeply dented the third while the 2F load went through 3 pieces of wood and deeply dented the fourth. In your case different bullet weights are going to penetrate differently at the same velocity but shooting through wood might be interesting. Because of key holing, you will probably have to shoot at 25 yards or closer

cheers mooncoon

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

While it does not give you velocity, it does allow you to compare it in a round about way. I tried shooting through a series of short pieces of 2x6" wood some years ago. I had a 1:48 twist muzzle loader that was fussy about powder charge. I speculated that the most accurate loads of black powder were because of achieving the same velocity. Definitely no true. In my gun, with .530 patched round ball, 55 grains of 3F and 80 grains of 2 F were my most accurate loads. The ball with 3F powder went through 2 pieces of wood and deeply dented the third while the 2F load went through 3 pieces of wood and deeply dented the fourth. In your case different bullet weights are going to penetrate differently at the same velocity but shooting through wood might be interesting. Because of key holing, you will probably have to shoot at 25 yards or closer

cheers mooncoon

That is a great idea Mooncoon. I have this week (and hopefully next week) off so family schedules permitting I'll give that a try... that is IF I haven't run out of 405s now (just burned off 200 in the .45-70 today).

NCBB

 

[mooncoon]

with a different (and cartridge) rifle I tried shooting through a row of 1 gallon plastic milk containers filled with water. I was inspired by those shots you see on tv where they collect the bullet in one of the bottles. For me after going through 3 or 4 bottles of water, the bullet seemed to veer of course and miss the next bottle

cheers mooncoon

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

with a different (and cartridge) rifle I tried shooting through a row of 1 gallon plastic milk containers filled with water. I was inspired by those shots you see on tv where they collect the bullet in one of the bottles. For me after going through 3 or 4 bottles of water, the bullet seemed to veer of course and miss the next bottle

cheers mooncoon

That would be fun - veering bullets notwithstanding! I've not tried setting the jugs like that myself, only one at a time. I wonder if using 4L milk jugs that have more or less straight sides might help contain the bullet path ?

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

This thread is dang near 2 years old but given the recent posts around 45/70 & 45/90 etc I figured I'd bring the 1886 out this morning & bump this thread. Need a tang sight I can't see 100 yards at the best of times but today the sun was really obscuring the front sight; anyway you can see the clean crisp holes at 100 yards (factory open sights) with 315 grain bullets, duplicating the original factory smokeless loads. It's running great, I cannot see a reason to rebarrel this unit at this point. It's probably outshooting my abilities, despite the sewer pipe bore.

And on the recoil front, it's not bad with the 315 grain pills (and obviously the loads are NOT hot) - could shoot this one all day; but you definitely know you've pulled the trigger. I put ~40 rounds through it today, no problem. NOT like 500 grainers in my 45/70 Pedersoli Sharps. Those hurt.

(and the drawing is from one my kids I didn't even realize it was there until I put the picture up! Hope they don't realize I "borrowed" the paper)

 

[MC One Shot]

Have you slugged or cast the bore? What is the bore dia.? What is the dia. of the 300's and the 405's? Sounds like the 405's may be undersized for the bore.

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

I've tried but it's tough to get a get read. The tightest part of the bore quite honestly seems to be around .458" and that runs the majority of the length of the barrel; the throat is rough but seems to exist.

.405s, the 300s and the 315s are all sized .459". The 315s are from jethunter, but I checked the sizing and they are .459. I have molds for heavier and run them through a lubrisizer at .459.

To be honest, I haven't tried any unsized heavier bullets. Sounds like a good experiment (they seem to drop at .460").

 

[MC One Shot]

Are you placing a card between the powder and the bullet?

Have you been able to retrieve any of the 405's bullets? Examine them to see if the bases or the sides are cut by the gases.

 

[NorthCoastBigBore]

No card, those were all mild smokeless. That said, the 315s are gas checked. The 300s however, no check or card. Good call, because those always were a fairly brisk load for the day (1400-1500 factory). If I load BP I'll definitely use a card in this one, but unfortunately it's all but impossible to get up in my neck of the woods these days. Used to be available locally, now it's a challenge.

I didn't think about looking for those 405s, if I load some more I'll have a look, now that you've got my curiosity. I'm going to play around with some fatter boolits.

The other thing that could be different is the hardness of the bullet, I have no more of the 405s to compare them too. All I know for sure is, they were sized the same. The muzzle is "washed out" for lack of a better term, it looks like someone could have used a cast iron cleaning rod. I suspect that's part of the equation. So for any load to have potential to get all on one pie plate at a 100, I'm highly impressed. Good sights will help there too.

Good suggestions thanks, it'll be fun to try and ladder back up and have some more load choices.