Winchester M70 pre 64...the best there is?

Elk man

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Is the winchester model 70 pre 64 action the ultimate refinement of the legendary Mauser 98? With a beefy claw extractor, controlled round feeding, and incomparible three position safety. I don't know...I have never owned one:redface: . Is that (arguably) a fair statement. I realize I could be opening up a big can of worms here, but, what say you.
 
My .02....

Okay, I'll bite. Never had the inclination to pay extra money for a Pre-64 Win 70. That is if you can find one that isn't all "worked over". If I have the need for a control round feed rifle I suppose I could just get one of the new Win 70's classics with that feature... ;)

But I just a soon as have a Rem 700 with the push feed... :p
 
I have and use a 1953 Win 70 in 30-06 and it is probably one of the finest rifles I have ever owned. Mine is all original but finding one that hasnt been goofed with is getting tougher by the day.

In fairness, they are not worth the high dollar that some are asking for tho.....you do pay for the "pre-64 " part. It's just a very good gun.
 
I picked up a Model 70 4 years ago in 243 WCF. Built in 1957, it is worth every penny that I paid. It was reblued some time in it's life but the fact that it is almost 50 years old and looks as well as works like it does is something to be said for the quality of the workmanship when it was built. Every true gun nut should own at least one.
 
The big thing about the pre '62 M70 is that it had the claw extractor, and a few other diferences.
As far as being thhe ultimate Mauser style action, I don't think they are a s good as the newer ones.
I have shot a few of the newer controlled round push feeds nandf they are very good, but the Dakota is a tighter action.

There are some European actions that really work well also, and I also would shoot a Ruger before a Winchester, but that is just me.

Cat
 
The pre '64 Model 70 actions have several features that distinguish them from later models of this rifle. First is the extraction and ejection system used in the feeding and extracting of cartridges. The pre '64 model 70's have a bolt with a non-rotating claw type extractor that captures a cartridge as it is fed from the magazine and controls its journey into the rifle's chamber. This type of cartridge feeding is called "controlled round feeding" and is favored by a number of shooters, especially those who pursue dangerous game, because of the proven reliability of this type of cartridge feeding system. The pre '64 Model 70 rifle utilizes a blade type ejector. This type of ejector allows the shooter to control how far the empty cartridge case is thrown from the rifle by how fast the bolt is pulled back after firing. Other significant features of this action include: A three position wing type safety, a cone faced breeching system, machined steel trigger guard and floor plate, one piece bolt construction, and a trigger adjustable for weight of pull and overtravel. Winchester's Classic line of Model 70's still use this action due to its high popularity, and there is no sign of its use deteriorating. Many hunters still prefer this action over Winchester's newer "push type" action for its high degree of control, however, some dislike this classic action for this very reason; while the claw action is certainly not finicky, it does require a slight degree of discipline to use, as one must guide the bolt to its home position after ejecting the cartridge.

I like the "new" controlled round push feed available on the latest Model 70 variants better than the original version. JBRO
 
The Win 70 evolved from the Model 54 which evolved from the Springfield which evolved from the 98 Mauser. They are good rifles, although there was QC variation from rifle to rifle. The safety design is very convenient, but hardly the most rugged. The breeching copied the Springfield, which is inferior to the Mauser, in the event of a cartridge failure. A lot of the mystique surrounding the M70 resulted from the utter lack of esthetics found in the early push feed rifles.
 
I used to buy pre-64s to build guns on. They are very nice no question. Now I use the new Classics. They are longer so no problem with full length rounds. I know I'm pissing off the purists here but I like the new ones better. If you want a .375 length round with an old one you pay $1000 just to get the H&H length action, with the new ones you just grab a 7MM or .338, open up the box and adjust the bolt stop and you're ready to go. O.K. take your shots.
 
The pre-64 is one of the worst actions out there for gas handling. If you blow a primer or rupture a case expect a blast of hot brass and mabey a little fire in the face.
It has good craftmanship but other than that it is all hype.
 
I've owned a few over the years, and presently own three. I also own two classics at present. The new actions don't approach the old for feel or sleekness, but they are undoubtedly better at gas handling. That said, unless you like to load your ammo to the eyes or reuse the same cases 20 times, I think the weak gas handling of the old actions is overblown.

For a hard using rifle, I like the new stainless guns as I don't feel as bad when I abuse one. But for a "nice" rifle, I'll take an old one every time.

pre64_2.jpg


pre64_3.jpg
 
Riflechair said:
If you can find one in good shape you'll be able to tell. There is an awesome example of a pre64 for sale here on the board http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55566


No ####!

I used to own the twin to that rifle and like a fool I was talked into selling it. (For some reason I have kept a set of 264 dies though. :rolleyes: ) I only wish that I had something Arron really needed as trade bait! LoL

I have owned a few pre-64s and a number of post-64s including one of the "new" classic" The old ones were hit and miss when it came to accuracy. The newer ones I have handled have all shot MOA or better after developing good handloads. As was mentioned the gas handling of the originals left a bit to be desired. The new Classic are a good rifle, and in my experience just as smooth or smoother - especially with the anti-bind bolt - than the old ones. The new Classics have a cast extractor however that has been known to fail at the worst possible time. The 2 piece bottom metal of the new rifles can also be a bit of a problem getting set up so that it is reliable.

All in all I would pick one of the new Classics as a "working" rifle over a pre-64 but in truth NONE of the Pre-64 Winchesters come close to the quality of most of the British and European rifles of the same time period.
 
M70

I have a new Win. M70 featherwieght in 270WSM and they are really nice guns, i will buy another one for sure. I own Rem 700, Ruger 77 MKII and had a savage 110 and i like the Win. the best, partly because it is lighter but also smooth.
 
ON a sidenote, the M70 classic compact I've done a bunch of playing with has argueably the worst trigger I've ever shot. It hasnt been adjusted (even though I've offered, the guy wont touch it), but is absolutely horrendus.
The gun hardly hits paper with factory accubonds. I spent a few hours cleaning it. (literally, it had never been cleaned by my buddy) And it didnt get much better. Personally, I'd take the extra weight of a ruger over a Pre64, or classic. Actually, I have, twice. But unlike the Winchesters, not all Rugers are CRF. they look like it, but are not.
 
Pre64

:D I agree with all of Rick F's comments. I own some Pre-64-s and its the attention to detail and fitting of parts that sets them apart. IMHO they still make for a rifle that you can carry for a whole hunting carrer and still have a nice rifle in the end. Aesthetically they are still a cut above recent USRAC units.
This is my 300 Win
300-win-2.JPG


and of course they make a nice custom rifle too this one has a ser# of 3###

270M70.JPG
 
Whether or not the pre-64 action is the "ultimate" evolution of the mauser is somewhat open to question but it is pretty good. Gas handling is relatively poor but the classics are not that great either. The best gas handling actions are the Remington 700 and the Savage 110 and it's variants IMO.
I actually think craftsmanship is the one area where the pre-64 actions suffer a bit. They are not consistently good. Occasionally one sees a real dog.
There are features of the M70 which are, arguably, improvements over the 98 and others which are not.
The elimination of the slot through the left, or upper, locking lug is an improvement. It would be hard to argue that a slotted lug is better than a solid one! On the other hand, the ejector system of the 98 was rugged and simple. The spring was lightly stressed and robust. In the unlikely event that one failed (I've never seen it), it was easily replaced. Likewise, the bolt stop was rugged and functional. The M70 ejector is a small knife blade affair which lies below the stock line and is actuated by a tiny coil spring. Both the ejector and it's spring will gum up and fail to function as they should.
The M70 bolt stop is also located below the stock line. This makes for a sleekly contoured receiver but requires a good deal of wood removal in the inletting. Again, the actuating spring is a small coil spring with plunger on pre-64s and a bent wire spring on classics. There is a small but significant difference in function depending upon the vintage of the action. The pre-war and early post-war actions have the bolt stop fitted so that the impact of the bolt hitting the stop is transferred to the receiver via a step in the stop ( say that a few times quickly!) which contacts a corresponding surface at the rear of the bolt stop slot. In later versions and the new models, the force is absorbed entirely by the bolt stop pin which doubles as the trigger pivot pit. I have seen these bent and even broken off.
Both the M70 and the mauser feature a bolt sleeve lock which prevents the bolt sleeve from rotating when the bolt is open. That on the Mauser is, again, simple and robust. A sizeable pluger is tensioned by a stout spring and engages a generous notch cut in the rear of the bolt body. The M70 utilizes a tiny little latch actuated by the obligatory tiny spring and engaging (sometimes) a small notch. The M70 is well served by the grinding of a notch to positively hold the cocking piece in the cocked position as a kind of a redundant sleeve lock.
A notch like this is used by most actions today. The bolt sleeve lock is really only made necessary by the 3 position safeties which allow the bolt to be opened when the cocking piece is held back from the bolt body by the safety.
The inner ring which serves as a barrel abutment in the Mauser ( the so-called C-ring) probably strengthens the barrel/ receiver joint but it is plainly an unnecessary feature since most actions do without it. The coned breech of the M70 is an unnecessary complication which accomplishes nothing. It certainly does nothing for safety and neither does it help feeding.
I like the M70s and have some. I think they are by far the best effort of the US gun industry and a really nice action to work with. For a down and dirty, guaranteed to work no matter what rifle though, I'd go with a Mauser.
The new classics eliminated the best features of the Pre-64s and added nothing. Well, not quite nothing. They did give us the nifty little gas block thingy which also does a great job of keeping the left lug from being battered by the bolt stop (today's best bolt stop is that of the Ruger 77 for those who might be interested in my opinion. The spring cushion feature is clever and it's simple). Regards, Bill
 
<64

"Whether or not the pre-64 action is the "ultimate" evolution of the mauser is somewhat open to question but it is pretty good. Gas handling is relatively poor but the classics are not that great either"


Crap, someone who actually KNEW something about the inner demons of a M70 had to post!:D :D ;)
 
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