Probably a foolish question, but I’m sure there’s many people that know more about these than me, so I’ll ask . I recently bought a mod 12 it’s supposed to be from the early 60’s but it’s in such good shape, almost flawless really that I’m wondering if there’s companies such as norinco or whoever that are making clones or counterfeits? It has all the Winchester marks etc and a sin #, is there a sure fire way to tell for sure that this is the real deal? Thanks in advance
Winchester mod12
- Thread starter Gldnbear
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#1bcshooter
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There were some made in Japan for Winchester not too long ago .
They would be marked made in Japan & they were high quality not cheap clones
They would be marked made in Japan & they were high quality not cheap clones
Maritime Storm
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Close but no cigar. The Browning Model 12(offered in 20, 28ga and 410) was made by Miroku. The Y-Model 12 was made by Winchester with leftover and cheaper to produce parts through the early 80's in Connecticut.
Didnt winchester stop making the model 12 in 1964 since it was too expensive? (read: better quality).
Only exceptions like stated above are the limited runs after 1964.
^ Source? Also, by 'cheaper to produce' parts, do you mean cheap parts, or same-process as older ones, but now cheaper to produce with more advanced techniques?
Mine's a 1959, and although it isnt 'flawless' in terms of looks, it sure works slamfiring 6+1 rounds
I don't think there are 'lower quality' model 1912 (or 12) anyways.
If you google 'winchester model 12 serial number lookup' you'll find the first or second link has serial numbers vs year
Post a pic?
Only exceptions like stated above are the limited runs after 1964.
^ Source? Also, by 'cheaper to produce' parts, do you mean cheap parts, or same-process as older ones, but now cheaper to produce with more advanced techniques?
Mine's a 1959, and although it isnt 'flawless' in terms of looks, it sure works slamfiring 6+1 rounds
I don't think there are 'lower quality' model 1912 (or 12) anyways.
If you google 'winchester model 12 serial number lookup' you'll find the first or second link has serial numbers vs year
Post a pic?
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The Y series was not made in Japan and the Btowning / winchester's of the 90's were not made in 12ga. How about the part on the bbl where it says made in new haven conniect usa that should be a proof enough the y series was not made by cheaper parts the reciver was made from a investment casting then machined this system saves time. Ruger does the same on there no 1 and model 77 .
Didnt winchester stop making the model 12 in 1964 since it was too expensive? (read: better quality).
Only exceptions like stated above are the limited runs after 1964.
^ Source? Also, by 'cheaper to produce' parts, do you mean cheap parts, or same-process as older ones, but now cheaper to produce with more advanced techniques?
Mine's a 1959, and although it isnt 'flawless' in terms of looks, it sure works slamfiring 6+1 rounds
I don't think there are 'lower quality' model 1912 (or 12) anyways.
If you google 'winchester model 12 serial number lookup' you'll find the first or second link has serial numbers vs year
Post a pic?
all good info so far, i'll check the serial number later when i get home. there's literally not a scratch or scuff on the gun , that's why i'm suspicious. looks like someone bought it in 1963 and put it the the closet. Is it possible to post a pic on this site from your phone?
Falconflyer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I've never heard of any M-12 clones, what you have should be the real deal unless someone refinished it.
My apologies. I forgot there was no 12ga in the browning set.
So the y series 12ga were made in New Haven, CT by Winchester between 1972-80.Correct??
Cheers
the spank
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The Winchester Model 1912 (also commonly known as the Model 12, or M12) .Popularly named the Perfect Repeater at its introduction, it largely set the standard for pump action shotguns over its 51-year high-rate production life. From August 1912 until first discontinued by Winchester in May 1964, nearly two million Model 12 shotguns were produced in various grades and barrel lengths. Initially chambered for 20 gauge only, the 12 and 16 gauge versions came out in 1913 (first listed in the 1914 catalogs), and the 28 gauge version came out in 1934. A .410 version was never produced; instead, a scaled-down version of the Model 12 known as the Model 42, directly derived from scaled drawings of the Model 12, was produced in .410.
The Y models were introduced after 1964 and produced until 1981 when they were discontinued. Y models were made in 12 gauge only and the majority were trap grades with skeet and field grades available and were by customer and dealer order only. Y models were made with investment cast receivers, not the solid forged steel receivers of the pre-64 variants.
The Miroku Model 12 versions were made for both the Browning and Winchester brands and were available in limited runs only in 20 gauge and 28 gauge. There was also a model 42 410 produced at that time. Miroku versions are made with a safety interruptor preventing the slam-fire capability of the original Model 12’s.
As for a clone? It just isn’t going to happen. These guns are expensive to produce as they require a great deal of handwork to complete and assemble. Don’t be fooled into thinking because you have a mint example it must be fake. With over 2.2 million produced there are many as NIB and even NIB examples floating around out there though usually in the target grades, high grades or 3” versions.
The Y models were introduced after 1964 and produced until 1981 when they were discontinued. Y models were made in 12 gauge only and the majority were trap grades with skeet and field grades available and were by customer and dealer order only. Y models were made with investment cast receivers, not the solid forged steel receivers of the pre-64 variants.
The Miroku Model 12 versions were made for both the Browning and Winchester brands and were available in limited runs only in 20 gauge and 28 gauge. There was also a model 42 410 produced at that time. Miroku versions are made with a safety interruptor preventing the slam-fire capability of the original Model 12’s.
As for a clone? It just isn’t going to happen. These guns are expensive to produce as they require a great deal of handwork to complete and assemble. Don’t be fooled into thinking because you have a mint example it must be fake. With over 2.2 million produced there are many as NIB and even NIB examples floating around out there though usually in the target grades, high grades or 3” versions.
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Travis Bickle
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I have a 1918 manufactured I picked up for $200
It was beat to unholy #### but still functioned even with a broken firing pin!
I stripped it down completely and replaced many parts of the guts and trigger mech etc from numrich. About $120 in parts.
Refinished the stock and pump handle, stripped the last of the minimal bluing and gave it a 600F engine block flat black heat cured paint job.
It now cycles shells like it was made yesterday and will probably be cycling shells for another 100 years.
They are in my opinion the best shotgun ever made. You can get them for chicken scratch these days. Being able to both unload the shotgun without ramming every shell through the chamber first (why this became the standard design of modern pumps still boggles my mind) and also being able to pump fire the shells with the trigger held down is just awesome.
I loves me my Model 12!
It was beat to unholy #### but still functioned even with a broken firing pin!
I stripped it down completely and replaced many parts of the guts and trigger mech etc from numrich. About $120 in parts.
Refinished the stock and pump handle, stripped the last of the minimal bluing and gave it a 600F engine block flat black heat cured paint job.
It now cycles shells like it was made yesterday and will probably be cycling shells for another 100 years.
They are in my opinion the best shotgun ever made. You can get them for chicken scratch these days. Being able to both unload the shotgun without ramming every shell through the chamber first (why this became the standard design of modern pumps still boggles my mind) and also being able to pump fire the shells with the trigger held down is just awesome.
I loves me my Model 12!
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This.
You can pick up a model 12 for less than half the price of a new 870 express... and there's a big difference in build finish!
the spank
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You wont get any argument from me on that. IMO they are the best pump ever made. Though I no longer own one I owned several over the years, a 1932 nickel steel mfg field grade, 1973 Y Model Trap, 1976 Y Model Trap, 1976 Y Model Field, 2 Miroku mfg Winchester DU 20 gauge versions, a Browning Grade 1 20 gauge and a Browning Grade V in 20 gauge and all were excellent firearms.
Why did you sell them if you don't mind me askin'?
I'm probably never getting rid of mine, unless... It's for a 'better' Model 12
Like a super duckSpank you've got it explained pretty good there.
I'm a life long fan of the Model 12. Grew up shooting a M12 and still own many. . plain barrel, solid rib, two pin vented rib and 3 pin vented rib. Field, Trap and Skeet, Heavy Duck in plain and solid rib. Also an unfired 12 ga. The Model 12 has out lived multiple generations and still shooting. . I have 1st year 20 ga and 12 ga M12's that are still up for a good hunt and will most likely out live me and most of us here today.
the spank
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Why did you sell them if you don't mind me askin'?
I'm probably never getting rid of mine, unless... It's for a 'better' Model 12
I decided it was time to purge. I thinned the herd to a half dozen guns I use and put the $ tied up collecting dust elsewhere. It wasn’t because I didn’t like the guns. It was a hard decision to do but for the most part felt it was the right decision for me.
the spank
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Not so....about 3 months ago there was a pair of Japanese made Ducks Unlimited Winchester Model 12’s with gold accents in 20 & 28 ga’s for sale in the EE. First I had seen of that DU Model. It was all I could do not to pull the trigger and buy both.
