Winchester Model 12 12g problem

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rubberdown

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So I pulled my Model 12 out of the safe to help the wife practice for her RPAL test since they will have her load a pump action shot gun. I brought out this one and the 870, and the 870 practice went great. The Model 12 on the other hand, not so good. When loading shells into the tube, they are supposed to lock into the tube with the "Cartridge Cutoff" (part #29 in the link below) but this part just pushes back against the inside wall of the receiver, it doesn't stay forward and catch the rim of the shell. The videos I watched don't show a spring anywhere to push it in front of the rim, any ideas why this is happening? As it sits now, the shell stops against the carrier and as soon as I try to load another shell, the first one just pushed out.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/wp-content/uploads/Webcontent/gallery/11/Winch12EXView_PG.jpg

Thanks for any help.
 
Don't worry, it's not broken...that's how the Model 12 works! The lifter and the tab on the bottom of the breech bolt hold the shotshells in the mag tube. When the slide is pulled rearward the shell stop rotates down and stops the extra round, in the mag tube, from feeding onto the lifter and causing a jamb. Loading the mag tube on the the Model 12 requires a little practice compared to most pump actions. It is actually one of the few shotguns that is easier to unload than it is to load...simply push the lifter up and the shells pop out of the mag!
 
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Indeed, Not one of those fancy new shotguns, it loads funny if you are used to 870's and 500s. Lots of people think that there is something wrong with it because of the way it loads, and people have actually bought new parts to try to fix the issue that they were not actually having. As time goes on, less and less people know how the oldies work, and it leads to a lot of confusion and frustration.

And yes it is fun launching the shells out of her and the 1897's.


Oh and if they try to have her load a model 12 they are sneaky little pr*cks lol.
 
I honestly don't remember it being this way when I got it way back around 1999, but I only took it out a few times for partridge and it was my first shotgun, since then I have used a few much MUCH newer shotguns LOL. Looking at the picture below though, it would make sense for the part pointed out with the yellow arrow to secure the shells inside the tube magazine wouldnt it, instead of the end of the carrier?

 
Nope...it wouldn't make sense simply because of the way it is designed. Most pump actions today have 2 shell stops mounted in the receiver or the trigger assembly, one on each side, but the old M12 only has the one...the secondary one. The primary shell stop on the M12 is mounted on the bottom of the breech bolt and the shell lifter is actually guiding that shell up into it. I'm not sure why the M12 was engineered the way it is, with only the one receiver mounted shell stop, but I suspect it might be because Browning had a patent on the dual shell stop system used in the 1893/1897 shotguns and Winchester didn't want to pay him any extra money to use it on their in house design.
 
Sometimes she will stick on that, until you tap the gun and it falls back into place. That is just to lock the next shell in place so that when you pump it you don't get an attempted double feed with your shotgun. There is a video that exists on it.
 
NickKrete said:
I'd be more likely to say that modern designs are dumb compared to that of the Model 12 :p IMO, the best pump gun ever made.

-Nick
Click to expand...

X2.....I would never trade my Model 12 for any other pump. Look closely at it, those are not stamped sheet metal parts. They are machined parts from solid steel. Even the shell carrier is machined from a heavy steel piece, not stamped from a recycled tin can.

Looking at your pic OP the way the shells are seated and the stopper sits is 100% correct. And if you really want an "old vs. modern" comparison pull out that trigger assembly in your picture and compare it to any other modern pump available. That trigger assembly in your Model 12 is pure quality steel and workmanship.
 
I heard this story countless times over the years. . As said, nothing wrong, it's designed as such. . The cartridge cutoff holds the shell in position until needed. . To unload the magazine, no need to cycle the shells through the action, simply press up on the shell carrier and allow the shells to fall into your hand.

Winchester Model 12 is a fantastic piece of work designed when quality meant everything. . There were many, many inspection stages through out the build of the Model 12. . They'll run even with parts missing. . Two of mine are 102 years old and still in great condition. .

Over time Winchester discovered, with the Model 12, there was no profit in building a shotgun that lasted for countless generations of shooters. . Combine that with the increase cost of manufacture, doomed the Model 12. .

If you're lucky enough to own one in decent condition; look after it, clean it, lubricate it, shoot it . . Winchester don't make them anymore.
 
Rod said:
I heard this story countless times over the years. . As said, nothing wrong, it's designed as such. . The cartridge cutoff holds the shell in position until needed. . To unload the magazine, no need to cycle the shells through the action, simply press up on the shell carrier and allow the shells to fall into your hand.

Winchester Model 12 is a fantastic piece of work designed when quality meant everything. . There were many, many inspection stages through out the build of the Model 12. . They'll run even with parts missing. . Two of mine are 102 years old and still in great condition. .

Over time Winchester discovered, with the Model 12, there was no profit in building a shotgun that lasted for countless generations of shooters. . Combine that with the increase cost of manufacture, doomed the Model 12. .

If you're lucky enough to own one in decent condition; look after it, clean it, lubricate it, shoot it . . Winchester don't make them anymore.
Click to expand...

Thankfully they made over two million of them so there is always a few around for sale. The first sentence in your second paragraph sums it up quite nicely.
 
It's a relic of a bygone era. An old artifact from the generations when they built something to last half a century plus and keep on going like the day it was made.
I detailed stripped and cleaned my recent M12 I picked up.
I was blown away at the construction of them. Everything in it is solid milled steel! The entire trigger group, the receiver all of it.
Mine's 1927 and worn to the bare steel almost and it functions like brand new. There's some firearms you handle and you can just feel that it is built like a tank. The M12 is definitely up there.
Makes me feel nostalgic for a long gone era of quality 100% North American pride in craftsmanship :(
 
NickKrete said:
I'd be more likely to say that modern designs are dumb compared to that of the Model 12 :p IMO, the best pump gun ever made.

-Nick
Click to expand...

Not knowing anything about you other than this quote, I think we would get along just fine! Having a few shotguns (and more than a few M12s) For the weight, strength and just plain awesome looks (with a full rib and a polychoke) it is without doubt one of my favs.

C
 
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