Winchester model 12 pump, feeding question

Somerset Bar

Somerset Bar

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So I picked up an old winchester model 12 at a gun show, and the action is super smooth, however I'm having a pesky problem with the magazine. When I feed in rounds, the shell cut off won't block the shell in the magazine, it lets the shells come back against the feeding ramp. The gun cycles properly like this, but you really can't add any more shells until it's empty, if that makes sense.

I'm wondering if the part is worn, of if this issue sounds familiar to someone, like a "hey there's a spring that isn't engaging the cutoff arm. The part in question is this one:

http://www.nulineguns.com/part_part_70_3_31_42.php

I don't want to order the part if it's another part that is worn or it's just not back together properly. Any ideas? I've had shotguns my entire life, but this is my first model 12, and the patina on it is so sweet, and the action is like ice cubes on hot steel, so I'm hoping to get it functioning 100% as she may be my newest "bestest" shotty....
 
That's the way it works. The shells are supposed to rest on the feed ramp. Just push them up the tube and let them come back and rest against the feed tray.
Don't feel bad, I was in the exact same boat lol I picked up a 1927 20" barrel M12.
Took me a couple loadings and a trip to the internets to read about the design to realize that it's supposed to work like that. I only had experience with modern 870 style shotguns up to that point so was expecting the same.

It's actually fackin' brilliant though. You can now unload your shotgun quickly and quietly without racking 7 shells through the action and ejecting them all over the place.
It's an amazing firearm. I think it's the best shotgun design ever made personally. Mine is almost 100 years old and cycles and fires shells like it was made yesterday!
 
Yes it is extremely efficient at emptying itself on the ground. There would be a learning curve about reloading this with more than one or two shells in the tube, as the spring tension really wants to get them out of there.

So what exactly would be the purpose of the shell retainer arm if it doesn't retain shells? I mean, it's on a pivot point, but it just doesn't pivot. If the shell retainer just dropped down a 1/4 inch it would hold the shell in the tube perfectly. I almost think I could remove it completely and it would still function exactly the same (I may try that today).

I'm not doubting you guys, and yes, my experience is with 500's 590's and 870s (my least fav being the 870 style). This old gun just 'spoke' to me at the swap, and I have learned to always buy a gun that talks to you, and the one on either side of it in case they are ventriloquists... I'm sure it's been cut down, the barrel says full choke but this one is 18" and there is no choke in it... But still, she's a beaut.

Thanks guys, just wanting to make sure here.
 
The shell stop that's on a pivot is the secondary one. As the slide arm is moved back, it (shell stop) pivots up to prevent a second shell from exiting the mag tube at the same time and causing a jam.

And do not remove it or alter it in any way!!!! If you do, it will not work at all.
 
I went through the same thing as well. I saved a 1925 model 12 from the smelter last year. Older guy had taken it apart years ago and couldn't put it back together. Told me it was broken and he was going to dispose of it to the rcmp (along with a 303 lee enfield and a mosberg 12 ga) took those as well. He gave it to me in pieces and a bag of parts. Kinda felt bad...ran the first round of shells through it within an hour getting home....runs like a champ.
 
Somerset Bar said:
Yes it is extremely efficient at emptying itself on the ground. There would be a learning curve about reloading this with more than one or two shells in the tube, as the spring tension really wants to get them out of there.

So what exactly would be the purpose of the shell retainer arm if it doesn't retain shells? I mean, it's on a pivot point, but it just doesn't pivot. If the shell retainer just dropped down a 1/4 inch it would hold the shell in the tube perfectly. I almost think I could remove it completely and it would still function exactly the same (I may try that today).

I'm not doubting you guys, and yes, my experience is with 500's 590's and 870s (my least fav being the 870 style). This old gun just 'spoke' to me at the swap, and I have learned to always buy a gun that talks to you, and the one on either side of it in case they are ventriloquists... I'm sure it's been cut down, the barrel says full choke but this one is 18" and there is no choke in it... But still, she's a beaut.

Thanks guys, just wanting to make sure here.
Click to expand...

Yep
 
Okay, cool, thanks guys. I guess it makes sense that it's a secondary stop, since it does only feed one shell into the chamber. I guess I had better just go to the range and get familiar with it then. :)
 
Someone beat me to it lol
Do not remove the stop! That's what retains the next shell in the tube while the one against the feeder is being fed into the chamber.

Aye, take it to the bush and tell me it isn't the most awesome shotgun ever! ;)

Mine has a cut down 20" barrel on her. She is basically in the same format as the old M12 shotgun used as a combat shotgun up to 'Nam. Minus the ridiculous heatshiled and bayonet lug lol
 
Heh, okay cool. I have to say it will take a bit of getting used to. I have a 16ga ithaca featherlight that I've had since I was a wee lad which it doesn't have the loading port cover thing, and it holds the shells in perfectly, as does the mossy. I never liked the remington because the port cover bit my finger like a sonofabugger when I was about 7, I bled and cried everywhere and my grandfather got me the featherlight and said "there ya go ya cakey bastard, ya won't cut yer baby finger on that, ya fannybaws" or something like that (he was a WW2 sergeant, didn't care much for whining in the ranks).

The balance on this thing is fantastic. While I'm not crazy about the magazine issue right now, I "never say never" and may swear by it a year from now. I will have to say it does look like this thing has had about 10000 rounds though it, and carried around in the side saddle of half a dozen horses and it still seems to work. If it wasn't snowing I would have gone to the range today :)
 
Finally got some trigger time with this. Absolutely fantastic shooter, but the feeding definitely takes a bit of getting used to. If you want to top it up you have to be ready for the loaded shells to try and make a break for it. That said, it cycled 100% on birdshot, trapshot, 00 buck and even a few round ball slugs. Action is smoother than my 500 and it "feels" higher quality. Oh and it was my first 12 gauge without a trigger disconnector. My shoulder will be sore tonight...

Thanks for the help guys :)
 
Model 12's are a machinists marvel. So many beautifully machined parts all intertwined to produce one smooth pump. Most guys should stick with an 870. It's no wonder Winchester went broke!
 
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