Winchester Model 21 28 Gauge

This has been an interesting thread to read.

I have two M21s. both .12 bore, one a WWII-era worker gun (where they took them out of the factory, perhaps without paying?!) and a Skeet model. Nice guns. I shoot quite well with the Skeet and appreciate its robust construction for the added weight, even with light 1200 fps 1 oz loads.

The price commanded by the Winchester models is due to scarcity. Plain and simple. While a M21 in .28 is extremely expensive, so is an original M12 in the same gauge. The last one I recall seeing going at auction in Canada was something like $6500 if memory is correct. I know an older gentleman with one, and despite not using it, and no children, he is reluctant to sell it. So, I wait.

Are they over-weight?, over-priced?, that is a personal opinion for sure, and most certainly asserted by someone whom does not own one, due to a variety of reasons.....they cannot afford, not the opportunity, basic jealousy, whatever.

Thank You.
 
Cow Town Bill said:
CSMC make a light weight 28 ga M21---I'm sure its under 7 lbs.
Winchester only made a small number of 28 ga M21's (a figure of 200 comes to mind) and most were made for competition skeet shooting. The serious skeet shooter (I used to be one) shoots 4 gauges (12, 20, 28 and 410) and ideally they want all 4 guns to be of similar weight. Winchester made the M21 in 28 gauge and eventually the 410 at the special request of a small number of dedicated shooters who could afford the best. This was back in the 40's and 50's when side-by-sides were popular with skeet shooters, and trap shooters too.
I'm a dedicated M21 and have been for over 50 years. I've owned 12, 16 and 20 gauges. For upland shooting the 16's and 20's are under 7 lbs and are a delight in the field. Back in the day when we could use lead for waterfowl, a 12 ga M21 was deadly.
I, too, have dreamed of a 28 ga M21 but the cost is prohibitive. If I win a lottery I'll get a 28 and 410 M21. I like them that much.
Before closing, I'll add my thoughts on the ideal weight of a field shotgun. If you get into high volume shooting (1000 shots a day is common) such as doves and pigeons in Argentina a 28 ga is ideal--- you want a gun that doesn't kick the snot out of you---a 7.5 lb M21 would be perfect. But that same gun would be too heavy for ruffed grouse or woodcock. Hunting late season sharptails in Alberta or Saskatchewan requires heavy loads and a 7-7.5 lb gun is ideal inspite of the handicap of carrying it for hour after hour. And, if you enjoy shooting skeet, trap and sporting clays you want some heft in your shotgun to give you pointability and soak up recoil.
Bill
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Based on what Im reading here all the gents weighing in on 28g and Mod12’s have a depth of knowledge and experience earned from decades of shooting. A broad spectrum from field shooting to all the clay games. I can relate, I think I fit in. Ive done Argentina, trying to describe that is difficult. Its like trying to describe the Rocky Mountains to someone who has never left Ontario. Even showing pictures doesn’t do it justice. Saskatchewan, huns, sharpies and shorthairs were my life, when I could walk for hours and endless miles. Now my local gun club is my home away from home. Spend so much time there they might start charging me rent. lol

Life has been interesting. With money it was always feast or famine, more just getting by. As you get older you try to catch up on some of the things you could never afford. Now that you have the money to spend you may not have the time to enjoy what you buy for very long. So whatever I buy has to make me very happy while Im still above the grass, and when Im gone…Im sure my children will cherish them.

I put a Belgium SxS into my grandfathers casket years ago. I expect my son to put the other matching SxS into my box when the time comes. In my mind these were the two ‘Best Guns’ that we’ve ever owned, they are priceless.
 
Mr Bill said:
Based on what Im reading here all the gents weighing in on 28g and Mod12’s have a depth of knowledge and experience earned from decades of shooting. A broad spectrum from field shooting to all the clay games. I can relate, I think I fit in. Ive done Argentina, trying to describe that is difficult. Its like trying to describe the Rocky Mountains to someone who has never left Ontario. Even showing pictures doesn’t do it justice. Saskatchewan, huns, sharpies and shorthairs were my life, when I could walk for hours and endless miles. Now my local gun club is my home away from home. Spend so much time there they might start charging me rent. lol

Life has been interesting. With money it was always feast or famine, more just getting by. As you get older you try to catch up on some of the things you could never afford. Now that you have the money to spend you may not have the time to enjoy what you buy for very long. So whatever I buy has to make me very happy while Im still above the grass, and when Im gone…Im sure my children will cherish them.

I put a Belgium SxS into my grandfathers casket years ago. I expect my son to put the other matching SxS into my box when the time comes. In my mind these were the two ‘Best Guns’ that we’ve ever owned, they are priceless.
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Agreed, and I appreciate how you are choosing to live your life.

I grew up poor/lower middle class, and was influenced greatly by my Father, whom would be 92 this year. He didn't waste money, and what He owned was quality. He would not believe what I have in My collection, were He alive. M12s, M37s, M23s. M21s...and a number of beautiful rifles, but this is a shotgun forum.

So, Mr. Bill, enjoy your choices, which I appreciate. We are simply passing through this one time, and enjoy each day at the Club.

If any of the Naysayers comes across a chubby, clunky M21, I will buy it, after all, its not a quality smoothbore.

P.
 
Right on, Model 21 fans! Everybody should buy a grail gun. The one you really, really, want.
I used to think it would be so special having a Superposed of any grade. Then it was a Lefever. Then something else.
So funny about Dewey Downer. Yeah, he's a lot of fun at parties I bet. I've been reading his blog for quite a while and he makes no secrets about how he really feels.
 
canvasback said:
Interesting you mention Argentinian dove shooting Bill. I was talking with a friend last night about this M21 and we both agreed it was about the only kind of live bird shooting with that 28 ga that seemed to make sense.
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This M21 would also make a great gun for sporting clays. Doesn't have the killing power of a 12 or 20 ga but the mild recoil and reduced muzzle blast make it a sweetheart at busting clay targets.
 
Yes, this has been an interesting thread alright.

Every so often someone posts a thread about a famous and desirable firearm they admire and desire and would very much like to acquire if everything lined up. And this time it was about a shotgun that has a strong following and solid place in the hearts of North American hunters, shooters and collectors.

It's enjoyable to contribute to the conversation with so many folks adding to the knowledge of what to look for, on the shotgun, and what to be aware of and how to establish fair market value and any info that might help the poster out. Even with the subtle negativity it's been enjoyable nevertheless.

In closing, don't give up or lose interest, the fine Winchester, you desire is out there and may become available when you least expect it.

All the best:
Rod
 
Londonshooter said:
Right on, Model 21 fans! Everybody should buy a grail gun. The one you really, really, want.
I used to think it would be so special having a Superposed of any grade. Then it was a Lefever. Then something else.
So funny about Dewey Downer. Yeah, he's a lot of fun at parties I bet. I've been reading his blog for quite a while and he makes no secrets about how he really feels.
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I’m watching this old fart (older than me) called Art on boobtube and to my surprise and horror he is resoldering the barrels on a Model 21 and in his dialogue saying this is a common problem with Model 21s !!!! Then he goes on to say he has had to re-solder barrels on Browning Superposed shotguns also. A buddy who is a master class sporting clay shooter has had 2 Perazzi sent back because the soldered barrels lets go. I thank God have not had this problem yet (knock on wood) and having just watched a Krieghoff factory tour where they soldered barrels I learned that they use high strength silver solder but only on their 12g. The 28g guns I have are all soft lead soldered is my understanding.

I would like to believe that ‘Art’ and Dewey Downer are from the same gene pool but the reality is they are right in that mechanical things may not be perfect and things do break.

Doesn’t matter…the hunt is on for a Model 21, hopefully in a 28g and if not a 20g. If it breaks I’ll get it fixed. My friend in Virginia says Model 21’s are ‘common’ at the big gunshows. He’s looking for me. Dam the torpedoes, full speed ahead !! lol
 
Rod said:
I've never heard of this Dewey Downer gunsmith guy but I suspect he's completely full of sh+t. Must have gotten fired from Winchester and carried a grudge. I've followed Winchester shotguns most of my life and the Model 21 was the Olin bros pride and joy and they spared nothing in the manufacture of the gun.

The M21 was proof tested 200% above proof. Many M21's have been rode hard and put up wet for many years and then rebuilt and used another two or more lifetimes and still in use today. The Model 21 doesn't command the high prices it enjoys and the following it has by being what this guy claims. He should have stuck his head in the toilet and flushed twice.
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Just to be clear, I wouldn't call this subtle negativity Rod. Nothing subtle about it. Nor was the inference by another poster that some commenting here were jealous and probably couldn't afford a M21. I'm wondering how many London Best he's had in his collection.

The OP asked for opinions and comments. I took him at his word.
 
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Well, Mr. Canvasback you have a history of and have admitted to tormenting Model 21 admirers for your own enjoyment and satisfaction and when someone contradicts your negativity you get all messed up. If you dislike Model 21's that much why bother stirring the pot and getting involved just to bad mouth or throw a wet blanket on an enjoyable conversation by quoting your end all hate all expert in SxS info. No one here bad mouths the SxS shotguns you own or worship. If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen don't stand next to the stove. If your skin is that thin then stop trying to knock a legend off it's perch for your own gratification.
 
Mr Bill said:
I’m watching this old fart (older than me) called Art on boobtube and to my surprise and horror he is resoldering the barrels on a Model 21 and in his dialogue saying this is a common problem with Model 21s !!!! Then he goes on to say he has had to re-solder barrels on Browning Superposed shotguns also. A buddy who is a master class sporting clay shooter has had 2 Perazzi sent back because the soldered barrels lets go. I thank God have not had this problem yet (knock on wood) and having just watched a Krieghoff factory tour where they soldered barrels I learned that they use high strength silver solder but only on their 12g. The 28g guns I have are all soft lead soldered is my understanding.

I would like to believe that ‘Art’ and Dewey Downer are from the same gene pool but the reality is they are right in that mechanical things may not be perfect and things do break.

Doesn’t matter…the hunt is on for a Model 21, hopefully in a 28g and if not a 20g. If it breaks I’ll get it fixed. My friend in Virginia says Model 21’s are ‘common’ at the big gunshows. He’s looking for me. Dam the torpedoes, full speed ahead !! lol
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Hold out for the 28 gauge!:)
 
canvasback said:
Just to be clear, I wouldn't call this subtle negativity Rod. Nothing subtle about it. Nor was the inference by another poster that some commenting here were jealous and probably couldn't afford a M21. I'm wondering how many London Best he's had in his collection.

The OP asked for opinions and comments. I took him at his word.
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Yes, comments and opinions.Good and bad.:)Still want a 28 gauge Model 21 ,but for myself,even if one were available,it would be beyond my means.:(Always nice to dream though, of your holy grail.:)
 
Rod said:
Well, Mr. Canvasback you have a history of and have admitted to tormenting Model 21 admirers for your own enjoyment and satisfaction and when someone contradicts your negativity you get all messed up. If you dislike Model 21's that much why bother stirring the pot and getting involved just to bad mouth or throw a wet blanket on an enjoyable conversation by quoting your end all hate all expert in SxS info. No one here bad mouths the SxS shotguns you own or worship. If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen don't stand next to the stove. If your skin is that thin then stop trying to knock a legend off it's perch for your own gratification :coffee::coffee:
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Rod said:
Well, Mr. Canvasback you have a history of and have admitted to tormenting Model 21 admirers for your own enjoyment and satisfaction and when someone contradicts your negativity you get all messed up. If you dislike Model 21's that much why bother stirring the pot and getting involved just to bad mouth or throw a wet blanket on an enjoyable conversation by quoting your end all hate all expert in SxS info. No one here bad mouths the SxS shotguns you own or worship. If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen don't stand next to the stove. If your skin is that thin then stop trying to knock a legend off its perch for your own gratification.
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Remarkable how you and your brother in arms make it about me, while I’m talking about the gun.

I’ve “admitted to tormenting M21 admirers….” ?

Besides being a bald faced lie, that you wrote this says so much about where you are coming from.

“ you get all messed up”?

The more I read the funnier it gets. Why do a few direct comments that don’t follow the script get so under your skin? Dislike sone of the guns I prefer and I shrug my shoulders. “To each their own”. What’s wrong with a real world assessment of just how indestructible these guns are?

I’ve got a number of guns significantly older than the oldest M21 and they haven’t fallen apart. They’ve done their job for 100 plus years and are perfectly fine. That’s one of the fascinating aspects of many classic SxS guns. Their longevity, used as designed and given an extremely modest amount of care and maintenance. This isn’t a feature unique to M21.
 
Cow Town Bill said:
Here is a CSMC M21 28 gauge coming up for auction in the US. It weighs 6lb 7 oz and has #6 engraving, cased with accessories.
This should spark some interest.
What do you think?
https://bid.poulinauctions.com/CONNECTICUT-SHOTGUN-MANUFACTURING-MODEL-21-NO-6_i59095995
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I am beyond sparked !! Just got off the phone with my #1 son with a plan to drive down to CSMC… Google Maps says only 7hrs and 35 minutes from my doorstep. They have lots of M21’s to look at including some 20/28g combo sets. We have a plan… better weather for the drive from Ontario to New Britain, CT…a pocket full of money and credit cards, and to find the absolute best steakhouse there for dinner!!
….that little M21 28g with the English straight stock being auctioned looks good. Starting bid $6,000USD. Might have to throw my hat into the ring for that also. What’s the old saying? …one is none and two is one…
 
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