Winchester WS1 and WS2 skeet chokes measurements

Ol' Flinter

Ol' Flinter

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I have seen these designations on Model 21s and also Model 12s. Not sure if they are still used on current guns (if any)with fixed chokes but I know they predate the arrival of plastic wads. Can anyone tell me what are the original factory specified choke constrictions for these two designations? With current ammo they break targets as though they are the equivalent of modern Imp Cyl and L Mod so tighter than a current Skeet choke.
Thanks.
 
On earlier models WS1 was reputed to be depending on the gauge anywhere from bell shaped to .003 constriction and WS2 was usually.010 from what I have read on the the factory designations. I've heard a few say they had to load a spreader card in there reloads when using a WS2 for skeet as it patterns somewhere between IC & LM. On later models stamped WS1 and WS2 supposedly they were about the equivalent of a C and IC? Never measured any myself though I have had them. If memory serves I had an SX1 barrel stamped WS1 at one time?
 
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Found this in an old thread on shotgunworld...

[FONT=&quot]The WS-1/WS-2 fixed choke designation refers to "Skeet1" and Skeet 2," which are constrictions designed to produce optimum patterns at ranges of 20 yards and 30 yards respectively. In a 12 gauge gun, Skeet 1 is produced by jug choking the barrel into a negative constriction at the muzzle. The Skeet 2 choke will mic at about .008," which is a weak improved cylinder. some will say that Skeet 2 refers to .015" (e.g. light modified), but that is not correct insofar as Winchester chokings are concerned.[/FONT]
 
Ol' Flinter said:
Is it a Winchester with barrels stamped WS1 and/or WS2? If not then the mystery continues..... thanks.
Click to expand...

Everything I have researched points to the WS1 being a Bell choke where Winchester set the tightest point of constriction about 1.5" from the muzzle and the remainder was reamed in a bell shape expanding to it's widest point at the muzzle and the WS2 was made in the traditional fashion with the tighest part of the constriction at the muzzle and dependent upon the gauge was usually around .008 to .010. Winchester made them this way to give the best patterns possible at 20yds(WS1) and 30yds(WS2).
The charts I put up were for a refernce to indicate pattern percentage equations based on the amount of constriction.
If you're still mystified send these guys an email with your questions.

https://winchestercollector.org/models/model-21-shotguns/
 
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All the measuring and calculations in the world will only give you a ballpark figure. You seem to want to know specifically what your gun is patterning and the only real way to find out is go to the pattern board, spend an hour there and pattern some of your favourite loads and see what they're doing, then you will know for sure.
 
Falconflyer said:
All the measuring and calculations in the world will only give you a ballpark figure. You seem to want to know specifically what your gun is patterning and the only real way to find out is go to the pattern board, spend an hour there and pattern some of your favourite loads and see what they're doing, then you will know for sure.
Click to expand...

I know how it patterns from both barrels. What I wanted to learn was how much constriction came with the WS1 and WS2 fixed choke designations in 12 ga Winchesters. I guess I will have to get access to a bore gauge.... Thanks
 
My 1962 Winchester M12, 26" barrel WS1 choke barrel measures a maximum constriction -0.005" versus the bore diameter and this is 2-5/16" in from the muzzle. At the muzzle is opens up to +0.018" larger than the bore diameter leading up to the choke. Definitely a BELL choke that was measured with an inside bore gage using a dial caliper to read the actual dimensions.

The actual patterns I shot with factory Winchester Super Target #8 shot 1 oz 1180 fps loads showed a very even pattern that is between what I'd get with a cylinder choke and a skeet choke with my 12 ga Berettas....definitely more open than a skeet choke in my Beretta autoloaders. Actual "useable pattern" diameters were 9" at 7 yards and 24" at 20 yards measured from the shooters eye. WS1 is a heck of a nice choke for classic gun down skeet using the Model 12. Very easy to hit with and clay breaks are good with 7/8 oz reloads using #9 shot or 1 oz of reclaimed shot.
 
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I have a 1934 Tournament skeet in 12 gauge. My bore gauge gives 5T choke in the right barrel (SK1) and 10T in the left barrel (SK2). The right barrel has a recess choke which Winchester developed and used on most, or possibly all of their skeet guns. The left barrel has the conventional type of choke constriction.
By todays standards these chokes are too tight for a serious tournament shooter---today's chokes would be no more than 4T, perhaps less. Winchester developed the SK1 and SK2 chokes before the advent of modern plastic wads and other shotshell improvements.
Hope this helps.
Bill
 
After pushing a rally tight mop through my barrels I would agree that the WS! choke is a form of "Jug choke" back a couple of inches from the muzzle and the WS2 is a more conventional choke with a cone opening up from the constriction towards the muzzle but without the "Jug".
Thanks: that's the info I was hoping for.
 
Used a Winchester Model 50 choked WS1 some years ago for ruffed grouse. It threw beautiful open patterns of #8's and performed very well. Changed that barrel to a Cutts equipped barrel with a Spreader choke tube. Not near as nice I found the Cutts tubes react a little different with modern plastic wads.
Darryl
 
madtrapper143 said:
Used a Winchester Model 50 choked WS1 some years ago for ruffed grouse. It threw beautiful open patterns of #8's and performed very well. Changed that barrel to a Cutts equipped barrel with a Spreader choke tube. Not near as nice I found the Cutts tubes react a little different with modern plastic wads.
Darryl
Click to expand...

I have also used a Cutts for birds and skeet. The Cutts was originally designed for fiber wads and does perform differently with plastic wads for sure. I always thought the Cutts created a pattern that seemed to cause clays to almost "explode" when hit.
 
Blockcaver said:
My 1962 Winchester M12, 26" barrel WS1 choke barrel measures a maximum constriction -0.005" versus the bore diameter and this is 2-5/16" in from the muzzle. At the muzzle is opens up to +0.018" larger than the bore diameter leading up to the choke. Definitely a jug choke that was measured with an inside bore gage using a dial caliper to read the actual dimensions.
.
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If I am reading this right, that is NOT what a "jug" choke is. Sounds more like the "bell" choke that others have mentioned. A "jug" choke, goes from bore diameter to over bore diameter than back down to bore diameter more like a bulge in the barrel typically used to choke a barrel that started life as cylinder but can also be used to increase the choke in a lightly choked gun, example taking a skeet choked barrel and making it modified. If memory serves, jug choking was invented to add choke to muzzleloaders which, by their very nature for loading were not very friendly to a constricted muzzle
 
Licensed to kill said:
If I am reading this right, that is NOT what a "jug" choke is. Sounds more like the "bell" choke that others have mentioned. A "jug" choke, goes from bore diameter to over bore diameter than back down to bore diameter more like a bulge in the barrel typically used to choke a barrel that started life as cylinder but can also be used to increase the choke in a lightly choked gun, example taking a skeet choked barrel and making it modified. If memory serves, jug choking was invented to add choke to muzzleloaders which, by their very nature for loading were not very friendly to a constricted muzzle
Click to expand...


"Bell choke" sounds like the correct name for the WS1 choke, as it definitely chokes down .005" smaller than bore diameter at a point 2-3/8" into the barrel from the muzzle, then flares out to .018" larger than bore diameter at the muzzle.
 
Bell choke is exactly what it is as I mentioned twice in earlier posts. It was according to all I can find on it a choke Winchester worked on to deliver perfect patterns for 20 yards and the WS2 for 30 yards. They were designed at a time when ammunition was not made with todays plastic shot cups so they tended to spread a bit more. From what I have read from many threads on other forums many folks reloading who shoot guns with a WS1/WS2 combo use a spreader in their reloads to achieve the same pattern results with todays shotcup loadings as Winchester achieved with yesteryears. The upland hunters who chase birds in thick cover say the WS1/WS2 with a spreader in todays loads is awesome for the job.
 
Licensed to kill said:
If I am reading this right, that is NOT what a "jug" choke is. Sounds more like the "bell" choke that others have mentioned. A "jug" choke, goes from bore diameter to over bore diameter than back down to bore diameter more like a bulge in the barrel typically used to choke a barrel that started life as cylinder but can also be used to increase the choke in a lightly choked gun, example taking a skeet choked barrel and making it modified. If memory serves, jug choking was invented to add choke to muzzleloaders which, by their very nature for loading were not very friendly to a constricted muzzle
Click to expand...

I had the same thought.
 
I've corrected my original post 11 to refer to the WS1 choke in my M12 as a Bell choke, not a jug choke. A fellow shooter was calling them a jug choke...will have to correct him next time we talk. And I learned what a bell vs a jug choke was...haha.

At least O'l Flinter got some actual WS1 choke dimensions out of the discussions.
 
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