Windex and corrosive ammo…

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Deltasilver

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Windex and corrosive ammo…

If this has been covered in any detail before disregard

I’m new to Milsurp rifles. I’m easily confused. Like a lot of newbs I’m a tad concerned that I’m not “doing it right” when I clean my Mosin or SKS. I read post after post. Use Ammonia, don’t use Ammonia. So I’ve been doing some digging, looking for support for the Windex theory. Total Horses##t or Mythbusters proof?

There seem to be two commonly held (and apparently incorrect?) perceptions about using Windex. Firstly that it’s the Ammonia in Windex that “neutralizes” the corrosive salts which are a byproduct of ignition in Berdan primered ammo. Apparently not. Why? 9/10 internet experts agree - There’s no Ammonia in Windex. An example in context;

“There is no ammonia in Windex. I don't know about knock-offs, but blue-colored Windex is ammonia-free. It is roughly 95% water, 3% Isopropyl alcohol (aka rubbing alcohol) and 2% 2-butoxyethanol (aka butyl cellosolve). The "Ammonia-D" is a trademark for the mix of butyl cellosolve and isopropyl alcohol. Oh, and a touch of coloring. The stuff is ridiculously cheap to make. I priced making a 50 gallon batch and the ingredients would cost less than $20. The most expensive part of a bottle of Windex is the bottle.

What's doing all the cleaning work for Windex is the butyl cellosolve, a very good degreaser that's also soluble in water. The butyl cellosolve breaks up all soot left in the barrel and the water removes the corrosive salts. The isopropyl alcohol helps the water sheet on the surface without beading and evaporate with no spots ("streak free shine"). As stated before you don't want to neutralize the salts, just remove them. Water-based cleansers are the cheapest and easiest way to do that.”

http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=15023

Further helpful information from the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for Windex;

http://www.mta.ca/administration/facilities/safety/msds/Custodial/Windex Blue glass cleaner.pdf

Check page 3, Section 15. If there was Ammonia present it would have to be listed no? It is a WHIMIS controlled substance.

Secondly that Ammonia neutralized the salts. Again, apparently not. Alkaline cleaners neutralize salts. If we Google it there are any number of sites that list chemicals that will neutralize (break down) salts. Most of them seem to be Chlorine based or Phosphoric. And I’m guessing Bleach isn’t a good idea around guns. Or anything else sensitive to harsh chemicals.

So if hot water ISN'T available... Windex it is.

Anyway, useful insight (beyond the usual "I use it and it's fine") would be most helpful

Cheers.
 
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Fair'nuff

Yup got it. What I was getting at I guess was the whole Windex/ammonia thing in the absence of hot water. Up here in Boonie land my preferred shooting spot's an hour's drive from a source of hot water. The general wisdom seemed to be Windex because of the ammonia... There's no ammonia in Windex, the other cleaners in Windex are fine...Yadda yadda. :)
 
Winter washerfluid

I suppose if your concern about getting it off immediatly, you could use washer fluid. the ammonia in some window cleaners will fack up the varnish on some older milsurps. FYI it did on my sportered enfield. :redface:
 
Use water. Hot water is better than cold, better solvent action, steel dries faster. But the salts will disslove in cold as well. Bet you will have water wherever you are. Dry the parts after washing, apply oil.
Corrosive salts are a product of the chorate used in so-called corrosive primers. Nothing to do with Boxer or Berdan, these mixes were used in both. Older formulas even used fulminate of mercury, which adds additional problems, particularly for a handloader.
So called corrosive primers are not instant death to bores. Corrosion may eventually start, but temperature and humidity are also factors. The residual salts in and of themselves do not attack the bore. They do attract atmospheric moisture, and a fired barrel has no residual oil or other preservatives remaining.
If you choose not to wet clean at the range, wipe the gas affected parts and barrel with oil when you are finished shooting, and clean thoroughly when you get home. Inspect and wipe out a few times over the next few days. Particularly if the weather is warm and humid.
 
I have used windex, it seems to work & I have had less of an isue with it than using Hoppes #9 as a cleaner. Hot wanter is best and cheap, only problem is having it a the range and getting it every where. You can get chamber incerts made from a formed case and a plastic tube on the rim side to help. Or buy a WWII Canadian hot water funnel.

Just remember ammonia removes blue...

Pete
 
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I have used windex for years. After a outing I run 2 windex soaked patches through the tube followed by a brushing then another windexed patch, dry bore. I will then do a nornal cleaning with copper solvent.
Has worked well for me.
 
Windex isn't going to do any harm. Works as well as water. Convenient package. Readily available, but so is water. The added cleaning agents might even be useful. The thorough cleaning later is important.
 
My take on this:

Indeed (as stated above), if the salts are soluble in hot water, they will be in cold water too. Boiling water (again as stated above) simply allows more salts to be disolved in a given amount of water plus (and for me that's the main advantage) will heat up the metal so that the water will evaporate quickly.

It'd be interesting to get some info on the nature of the salt. I've read about mercury fulminate in old berdan primers, and then about potassium chlorate (KClO3) turning into potassium chloride (KCl) after it burns - but I am typing this as non-documented information extracted from my swiss-cheese memory, so anyone feel free to do a bit of research about this. Now KCl is hygroscopic (water magnet!) so this would substantiate the fact that berdan primers will mean rust in the barrel; shoot with a berdan primer = KCL in the barrel = water attracted in the barrel = rust a little bit later.

If the potassium chloride thing is true, then I do know that it is very soluble in water. There would not be any need for other solvants, water would work perfectly. As long as the barrel is dried completely. (back to the boiling water thing being a very smart idea).

So why would one want to use something else? It would be great to find a water-less, non-hygroscopic solvant of KCl that works great at room temperature, and that's easily available at your local Canadian Tire. Any chemist in the crowd? I'm not one...

My 2 cents,

Lou
 
I usually put boiling water in a steel thermos and take it to the range. Corrosive gets shot first, a hot water chaser, followed by an oily patch.

Thorough cleaning at home.

The water stays surprisingly hot for hours as long as the thermos stays sealed.
 
Windex with ammonia or not, the ammonia doesn't do anything. Not all berdan primers are corrosive either. The salts won't instantly cause rust. You can wait until you get home.
 
louthepou said:
It would be great to find a water-less, non-hygroscopic solvant of KCl that works great at room temperature, and that's easily available at your local Canadian Tire.
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Hoppes Elite/MPro7, not exactly waterless since it seems to be made of water based detergents and surfactants rather than solvent based, but is non toxic biodegradable etc etc. Haven't seen it at Canadian Tire, but my local WalMart used to carry it during hunting season.

Despite using/loving Hoppes Elite, I still boil the kettle and pour 'er down. Takes only a coupl of minutes,and I know for sure that it works.
 
I got minor rust on my gun using hops 9 so I decided to use windex, and no rust came up and it prevented it over a slightly longer period of time.
 
sl66ICEcuba said:
I got minor rust on my gun using hops 9 so I decided to use windex, and no rust came up and it prevented it over a slightly longer period of time.
Click to expand...

The only rusting problem I've had was in the gas tube of an SKS. What I do now that works perfectly is that I squirt Windex in the tube until it runs out the bottom. Then I swab it dry. Then I clean it as normal with Hoppes #9. (By the way, the label on the Hoppes bottle says it removes corrosive salts.)
 
sunray said:
Windex with ammonia or not, the ammonia doesn't do anything. Not all berdan primers are corrosive either. The salts won't instantly cause rust. You can wait until you get home.
Click to expand...

Ammonia will take out copper fouling... But I wouldn't use it at the range.

I have given lee enfields with a dark bore an ammonia soak and have had the bores clean up really nicely.
With corrosive ammo there is no substitute for hot water.
 
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