Winnipeg antique gunsmith

jjohnwm

jjohnwm

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I guess that title should read "gunsmith for antiques" rather than "antique gunsmith". I don't think I want to leave my guns in the hands of someone born before 1898...:)

Anyway, I recall reading on here once upon a time that there is a gent in the Winnipeg area who is a capable and trustworthy individual and who is familiar with working on antique revolvers. At the time that wasn't of use to me, and I eventually forgot who the guy is; I think he is even a member here? Does anybody know who this might be, and perhaps if he is still accepting work? Many thanks for all leads.
 
I haven't used a revolver for at least 20 years, and those were modern revolvers. This problem is with a French 1873/1874 DA/SA antique revolver which is even more alien to me. The cylinder spins freely when the revolver is not cocked. Cocking the hammer, either manually in SA or by pulling the trigger in DA, causes a projection on the top of the trigger to to rotate upwards and act as a cylinder stop; lock-up is tight. Once uncocked, this projection retracts back down into the lockwork, leaving nothing to engage the cylinder notches.

In examining the lockwork, I can't see any way for this to be corrected. If there is a part and spring missing, I have no idea where it would even go. It seems to work beautifully, and the thing seems to be made very well. The design is impressive, with tool-less takedown and easy accessibility. I just can't believe it's meant to function this way. It's a military-grade revolver; the last thing you would need in combat is for the cylinder to spin around to an empty or fired chamber when you drew the gun for action.

Long story short: it's beyond my rudimentary gunsmithing skills to even diagnose the problem let alone correct it.

I got a couple of leads via PM and hopefully will get somebody with a bigger brain to see what they can do. :)
 
I'm not familiar with the French revolver you mentioned but I've had a couple antiques over the years, that were the same as that. It was the firing pin resting in the primer after the first shot, that held the cylinder in place until the next shot. Not a perfect set-up and in later models it was changed. I could have this all wrong, just telling my experience.
 
When at half ####, the cylinder should be able to turn clockwise when viewed from the rear. The cylinder stop which you noticed was engaged by the motion of the trigger only impedes rotation during lockup. This produces an effect much like a webley where the gun is only truly locked when the trigger is pulled. The only common issue I’ve seen on MAS 1873s is a broken trigger return spring. From your description, your revolver is functioning as designed.
 
Hush07 said:
I'm not familiar with the French revolver you mentioned but I've had a couple antiques over the years, that were the same as that. It was the firing pin resting in the primer after the first shot, that held the cylinder in place until the next shot. Not a perfect set-up and in later models it was changed. I could have this all wrong, just telling my experience.
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I can actually see how that might work on this gun...seems like a completely boneheaded solution on a gun that has a lot of nice design touches...


BlackPowderBurner said:
When at half ####, the cylinder should be able to turn clockwise when viewed from the rear. The cylinder stop which you noticed was engaged by the motion of the trigger only impedes rotation during lockup. This produces an effect much like a webley where the gun is only truly locked when the trigger is pulled. The only common issue I’ve seen on MAS 1873s is a broken trigger return spring. From your description, your revolver is functioning as designed.
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I'm relieved to hear this explanation because I couldn't see an answer but didn't believe that there wasn't one; it's a bit of a relief to realize that I sorta kinda figured it out...:)

I did have a nice Webley MkI many years ago and recall how the lock-up tightened up as the trigger was pulled. I could have sworn, however, that the cylinder still wouldn't rotate even before the trigger was pulled.

Just to clarify: you mention that the cylinder on this revolver should rotate freely with the hammer at half-####, which it does. It is also completely free to rotate (clockwise only) with the hammer all the way down. Is this simply because the gun is unloaded and thus there is no fired primer for the firing pin to catch on and hold it in place, even though the gun is mechanically not locked?

Many thanks to both of you for your assistance; it's greatly appreciated. :)
 
jjohnwm said:
I can actually see how that might work on this gun...seems like a completely boneheaded solution on a gun that has a lot of nice design touches...




I'm relieved to hear this explanation because I couldn't see an answer but didn't believe that there wasn't one; it's a bit of a relief to realize that I sorta kinda figured it out...:)

I did have a nice Webley MkI many years ago and recall how the lock-up tightened up as the trigger was pulled. I could have sworn, however, that the cylinder still wouldn't rotate even before the trigger was pulled.

Just to clarify: you mention that the cylinder on this revolver should rotate freely with the hammer at half-####, which it does. It is also completely free to rotate (clockwise only) with the hammer all the way down. Is this simply because the gun is unloaded and thus there is no fired primer for the firing pin to catch on and hold it in place, even though the gun is mechanically not locked?

Many thanks to both of you for your assistance; it's greatly appreciated. :)
Click to expand...

Happy to help, these revolvers were very well made like most French military guns but do suffer from some design issues. Clockwise rotation in a fired position should be mechanically possible, the cylinder stop is disengaged. The difference is the tip of the firing pin will protrude through the recoil shield into the chamber and should block you from rotating the cylinder past that chamber. Letting the firing pin bash into the cylinder walls is a good way to break it! If your cylinder will rotate through chambers while the hammer is down then the firing pin may already be broken.

Timing and lockup on these older designs is its own big rabbit hole, I will point out that my MAS1873 will lock up more securely than almost any off the shelf Smith, Ruger or Colt. If you’d like more advice feel free to pm me, I am local to you and chances are we’ve met at one gun show or another.
 
can confirm that the firing pin is what would be holding the cylinder from rotating when not cocked, can spin freely at half #### and locks up only at full ####. Totally normal function of this particular model of revolver. Also worth noting is that this design does not have a rebounding hammer and firing pin will rest on primer when de-cocked.
 
I read these last two posts first thing this morning and then, with a fresh new thing to worry about :), I got the revolver out to take a close look. The tip of the hammer shows no signs of damage or even bluing wear; it is clearly not touching the rear of the cylinder when I rotate it with the hammer completely down. I suspect the gun has been re-blued at some time in its life, but unless one of the previous owners reblued the hammer after touching it up to make it appear undamaged, I don't think it will have a problem. I guess I can't be certain until I locate some ammo to actually try it out.

The hope had been that I might be able to use this as a "bush carry" piece, in which case I envisaged a problem. I certainly would not feel comfortable loading all 6 and then carrying it on half-####; but if I load only 5, the loosey-goosey rotating cylinder might very well be bashing the firing pin on the outside edges of the cartridge cases on either side of the empty "safety" chamber. I am thinking to either get a snap cap, or more likely, make a dummy round myself, and use silicone or some other rubbery material in the primer pocket. Lowering the pin onto that soft surface should protect it and also prevent the cylinder from rotating on its own, I am thinking?

As an aside, I have noticed a couple of discrepancies on this piece which tend to make me think that this 1874 "Officers" model differs from the 1873 in more respects than merely having a blued finish, as some sources indicate. First of all, watching the Forgotten Weapons segment on the 1873, Ian mentions that the 1873 has a plethora of serial numbers stamped all over it, inside and out. He mentions the number being stamped twice on the removable sideplate! Mine is lacking all this excessive marking. My gun also does not have the slight notch cut in the edge of the sideplate to ease prying it up, as he shows. I wonder if another possible difference from the more common 1873 might be a shorter firing pin protrusion, which would explain why mine is apparently not interfering with the rear of the cylinder or the chamber wall edges?

In any case, this is all just speculation and supposition until I get my hands on some ammo; sold tons of it, along with my .45 dies, etc. back when I got rid of my old Webley...:(

I have a couple of other questions as well; I will be PM-ing you at some point, BlackPowderBurner; haven't been to a huge number of gunshows in the past ten years, but you're right, the odds are good we have bumped into one another at some point. :)
 
jjohnwm said:
I read these last two posts first thing this morning and then, with a fresh new thing to worry about :), I got the revolver out to take a close look. The tip of the hammer shows no signs of damage or even bluing wear; it is clearly not touching the rear of the cylinder when I rotate it with the hammer completely down. I suspect the gun has been re-blued at some time in its life, but unless one of the previous owners reblued the hammer after touching it up to make it appear undamaged, I don't think it will have a problem. I guess I can't be certain until I locate some ammo to actually try it out.

The hope had been that I might be able to use this as a "bush carry" piece, in which case I envisaged a problem. I certainly would not feel comfortable loading all 6 and then carrying it on half-####; but if I load only 5, the loosey-goosey rotating cylinder might very well be bashing the firing pin on the outside edges of the cartridge cases on either side of the empty "safety" chamber. I am thinking to either get a snap cap, or more likely, make a dummy round myself, and use silicone or some other rubbery material in the primer pocket. Lowering the pin onto that soft surface should protect it and also prevent the cylinder from rotating on its own, I am thinking?

As an aside, I have noticed a couple of discrepancies on this piece which tend to make me think that this 1874 "Officers" model differs from the 1873 in more respects than merely having a blued finish, as some sources indicate. First of all, watching the Forgotten Weapons segment on the 1873, Ian mentions that the 1873 has a plethora of serial numbers stamped all over it, inside and out. He mentions the number being stamped twice on the removable sideplate! Mine is lacking all this excessive marking. My gun also does not have the slight notch cut in the edge of the sideplate to ease prying it up, as he shows. I wonder if another possible difference from the more common 1873 might be a shorter firing pin protrusion, which would explain why mine is apparently not interfering with the rear of the cylinder or the chamber wall edges?

In any case, this is all just speculation and supposition until I get my hands on some ammo; sold tons of it, along with my .45 dies, etc. back when I got rid of my old Webley...:(

I have a couple of other questions as well; I will be PM-ing you at some point, BlackPowderBurner; haven't been to a huge number of gunshows in the past ten years, but you're right, the odds are good we have bumped into one another at some point. :)
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Sounds good to me, it's a small world (especially when you like weird stuff). An as issued MAS1873 should have no bluing at all, they were finished in the white. The MAS 1874 revolvers were blued however the big visual difference is that they had a fluted cylinder unlike the 1873. There were other nations that issued Chamelot Delvigne variants as well as commercial gun trade copies. I suggest posting some pics to get a positive ID.
 
Pics will help greatly as there are civilian versions made by other manufacturers. If it's a MAS it will be marked with manufacture d'armes de st-etienne on the right side of the frame of the firearm.
 
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