With eyes wide open

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grimblyd

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Not sure where to post this, so as it started in trap, might's well be here.

So, I've always shot with just my dominant (right hand shooter, right eye dominant) eye open. Be it pistol, rifle or shotgun.

Just recently while shooting 5 stand trap, I started out with both eyes open, hoping to catch the direction of the clay pigeon quicker, then closed my left eye when shooting. A kind of odd natural progression occurred though in that I would sometimes shoot with both eyes open as the pigeon was perfect for a quick shot.

So now I'm trying to train myself to shooting with both eyes open. I've gone full on "eyes open" in trap. It has negatively affected my hit percentage, but I expect to get that back with practice.

I've tried firing rimfire with both eyes open, and it was working ok, not greatly impacting my groupings. I would check my sight picture with one eye closed, then open it and maintain the same picture through a group of shots. (semi auto 22) However I found that after about 1/2 hour of shooting, I was very tired and had difficulty maintaining a sight picture through the scope, so lapsed back to closing my left eye.

Questions I have about this.

Is there any style/format of shooting that I should stick with the one eye closed?

Any suggestions on training myself to shoot both eyes open, through all the shooting sub categories? (pistol, scoped shooting, trap, iron sight shooting. etc.)


Thanks!
 
I default to shooting everything with both eyes open. And outdoors handgunning I am pretty good at front-sight-focus / target-convergence. But indoors I sometimes have to close or squint my left eye to keep the front sight sharp.

Shotgun I always thought two eyes was the only way to go. And it's easier than handgunning with both eyes because you aren't focusing on the sights. Just know that you will generally see two beads, but should only pay attention to the left one.
 
Have you patterned your gun? Gun fit can in some cases cause a cross-dominance issues if the gun is stocked too low. Shotgunning is best done with both eyes open, it allows your brain to figure out the lead/sight picture.
 
I`m a handgun shooter but started shotgun two years ago, still have lots to learn. I need special glasses for iron sight guns and the focus point is somewhere between the front sight and the target. I can see both reasonably clear but not focused on either one. (For bullseye you would want a sharp front sight focus)

The clay shooters say to focus on the bird, although I sometimes find myself aiming like a rifle shot. When I do focus on the bird, it`s with both eyes so which eye is dominant, matters less. If you do close one eye, you lose your depth perception.

I shoot everything both eyes open.
 
kanada kidd said:
When I do focus on the bird, it`s with both eyes so which eye is dominant, matters less. If you do close one eye, you lose your depth perception.
Click to expand...

Actually it matters a great deal, if you are right handed and left-eye dominant, you will be looking across the barrel instead of down it, which means your leads will be off a couple feet for each shot, that's why you see a number of skeet/trap/sporting clays shooters with tape on the left lense of their glasses. It is there to correct cross-dominance. You need both eyes open for depth perception but you also need the eye behind the gun to be the dominant one.
 
I HIGHLY agree with above.

It's how I am, LEFT eye dominate, right handed.

If I close my left eye (something I'm attempting to learn not to do), leads become very one dimensional. Something I can relate to and have learnt to shoot with rather good success by gauging target distance, trajectory, and speed. I have decent eyes and have no problems picking up targets quickly. Fitment is good so sight picture once eye closed is bang on.

Now, if I open BOTH eyes, the barrel often disappears and I often have no reference of lead. At that point it's almost going by feel, which I've tested and have had varying success with. Once again, something I'm attempting to get better at.

Often, I heard "lead target by 3 feet" on LONG shots.

I was blown away by this, because IF you close one eye, to hit the target you need 10-15+ feet lead. I have a feeling people saying 3' are often seeing lead different by keeping both eyes open. This is often being said by very experienced shooters.

This is an interesting part of shooting shotgun and often not fully understood by people who can't reference what somebody else sees. For this reason I try not to give advice on lead unless I can see their shots behind or ahead of target. The shooter needs to learn THEIR view of the target and perceived lead being applied which results in hits. I also try to explain that every target needs to be judged because applying the same lead to all targets, as you know, will net very poor results. That's the fun/challenging part of shooting shotgun. That instinct or non-thinking response will overpower the attempt to understand and just seems to work.
 
Shibby; you have a complete understanding on shotgunning works. Tom Roster recently wrote an article recommending discontinuing teaching lead tables and explained in scientific terms as to why they are worse then useless, most instructors already have done this. Your brain is trained over time to figure out the lead needed to break a moving target, this takes time and how long it takes is different for every person. Robert Churchill figured this out back in the 1930's, Don Currie has article explaining quite nicely(The Churchill Axiom).
 
I just got back into trap this year, I was shooting one eye open and managed a 20, I was trying to force myself to keep both open and every time I did, I missed. The only thing I can successfully shoot with both eyes open is my pistol.
 
Maritime Storm said:
Shibby; you have a complete understanding on shotgunning works. Tom Roster recently wrote an article recommending discontinuing teaching lead tables and explained in scientific terms as to why they are worse then useless, most instructors already have done this. Your brain is trained over time to figure out the lead needed to break a moving target, this takes time and how long it takes is different for every person. Robert Churchill figured this out back in the 1930's, Don Currie has article explaining quite nicely(The Churchill Axiom).
Click to expand...


Interesting. I'll have to dig into those articles when I have time.

I'm not an overly experienced shotgun shooter. I've kinda jumped in head first late last year and have shot around 3500 rounds so far this summer. I attempt to listen to those who are experienced and/or good shooters. Being told varying lead that I saw completely different was always something I struggled with, however also heard other say "everybody sees lead differently", or "you might not see it the same way". I knew my previous hits at similar distances were MUCH further lead than one some very experienced shooters told me.

Opening both eyes for me definitely proved that.

That being said, I think it was still benefitial to shoot as long as I did with dominate eye closed. It helped me understand lead and how different targets require different leads. I still struggle with my least practiced shots which are far, but I KNOW why I miss the close to medium range shots. (I don't shoot skeet. 5stand and sporting clays only)

After awhile I noticed myself not thinking, or almost shooting reactively/instinctively. This was highlighted in a 3G competition where I got a proceedural for shooting a target I shouldn't have shot with a shotgun. It was instinctive. I saw it out of the corner of my eye, and slammed a shot home in full swing. The RO was impressed with my skill breaking the COF> haha.

Soon after this is when I did tests with both eyes open. With either barrel not seen or lead looking much different, I had some very good results, but still felt the urge to close an eye.

This winter and next year I hope to make grounds here and see if I can learn to shoot better by keeping both eyes open.
 
Maritime Storm said:
Actually it matters a great deal, if you are right handed and left-eye dominant, you will be looking across the barrel instead of down it, which means your leads will be off a couple feet for each shot, that's why you see a number of skeet/trap/sporting clays shooters with tape on the left lense of their glasses. It is there to correct cross-dominance. You need both eyes open for depth perception but you also need the eye behind the gun to be the dominant one.
Click to expand...
+1. A truly cross dominant shooter will never be successful shooting with both eyes open. The dominant eye is the "rear sight" of the shotgun and it must be behind the barrel not off to the side.

Fortunately, I am right-handed and strongly right dominant so have always shot with both eyes open.
 
I'd like to report that I have pushed myself to shoot with both eyes open and my scores have remained the same, or improved. I find I'm contacting more close/fast clays, and about the same with far clays. Focusing on far clays is more important with both eyes open to determine proper lead. The ones I used to hit consistently are hit or miss now, but the ones I rarely hit are being hit a time or two... Need improvement on those.

It's becoming more common to get high score and beating some very experienced shooters in the club.

I still think my time (about a year) shooting with dominate eye closed has helped me get to this point. I see people struggling with lead, then trying to change things, etc. I learnt by finding the required lead based on a clay by clay basis. Now with both eyes open it's become almost instinct and I don't even see/look or think where the shotgun is shooting. I don't think that would have been as easy without knowing where to be shooting.

Might be wrong with that.
 
I find this all very interesting as I"m leaning more towards Trap, Sheet and 5 Stand. Right now my scores are so bad except in Trap that I'm trying everything mentioned above. What I find so annoying is that I find Trap so easy compared to any of the others. Maybe I'm shooting HIGH which is sorta required in Trap. Working on Skeet mostly hoping to get better at 5 Stand which I find similar but with more moves. Tried Dominant Eye and Both eyes Open. Gun up, gun down. Ever so slowly getting better. Whats annoying is when I do hit one at Skeet at Station 4(toughest for me) and am asked what I did different, I'm stumped for an answer. Up to about 1500 rounds now. Hope I won't have to shoot another 10,000 to improve a bit. Did take Sporting Clay lessons in the spring and did pretty good on course but for some reason the dots arn't connecting on Sheet and 5 Stand. Thanks
 
I have often wondered about these questions. I haven't shot trap other then with a basic trap machine since I was a young teen before My left eye dropped a bit (term is lazy eye I think) Then I left both eyes open. Now when ever I shoot anything I close my left eye as the difference between my eyes throws depth perception way off. Before the eye dropped I was getting scores around 18 or 19 sometimes better some times worse. With the basic trap thrower I have a hard time with left and right flying birds (hard right and hard left)
I seem to be fairly good at going away birds. I really wondered short of eye surgery if there is a way to compensate so I can try trap again as I really enjoyed it.
 
Try four things. By no means am I experienced or exceptional shooter myself, but things I can see some shooters doing:

1) Proper gun fit. This affects everything.
2) Pattern board. Find out where the gun is shooting - Fit comes into play, very much so if shouldering from high ready.
3) Don't lower gun, or raise head between clays. Stay fitted to the gun spotting and transitioning. Many newer shooters do the gun lowering, or lifting head instinctively. Constant reminding yourself or others to not do it.
4) Treat every clay differently. Think what it's doing, not what it looks like it's doing. Ie: Shoot where it's going to be, not where it is or appears to be going.
5) Shoot the first clay as quick as possible. Allowing plenty of time for the second. Watch what Lynn does. His 2's, 7's, 6's, and 1's are all crushed very quickly. Even more important in windy conditions.

Improvement comes with shooting more. I've only been at it about a year, but I'm close to 4000 rounds this year alone. The second half of my year has been constant improvement, both in actual hits, and feeling comfortable / instinctive. I feel the mental side of things coming into play and that was most notable in Radium where we had 220 targets in a day. About 1/2 through the afternoon shoot my mind started wandering. I put considerable focus in and pulled the scores back in, but it took realising that my mind was not "in the game" due to mental fatigue or just goofing around.

Stance is a big one too. As you've seen, I shoot much different than anybody else. I really "step into" the gun while being fairly squared off, putting most weight on my front foot. Pivoting with the rear and body. While definitely not "proper" it feels most comfortable. I see many people doing it the exact opposite though. They seem to often complain about gun fit and hitting targets. They weight both feet about 50/50, don't step into the gun, and have issues putting head down on the rifle. I think this plays poorly on gun fit and gun movement.

The above is my observances anyways. Everybody has their own way of doing things.
 
Couple of interesting things here. Shibby's last post has some great info in it. Especially that last line, everybody has different dimensions, medical issues, and a perception of what is comfortable to them. Everybody will, as such, have their own distinct style to their shooting.

First is this;

"Tried Dominant Eye and Both eyes Open. Gun up, gun down. Ever so slowly getting better."

Sounds like you are changing things up too much, pick a change and stick with for at least 2 months, 6 is better. Every time you change something in your routine it takes your brain about a 1000 sight pictures to adjust and make it into the sub-conscious.

Second;

"I still think my time (about a year) shooting with dominate eye closed has helped me get to this point. I see people struggling with lead, then trying to change things, etc. I learnt by finding the required lead based on a clay by clay basis. Now with both eyes open it's become almost instinct and I don't even see/look or think where the shotgun is shooting. I don't think that would have been as easy without knowing where to be shooting. Might be wrong with that."

Which means you're now settling into form you need to, once you stop focusing on every little aspect of shooting a clay target and come to the realization that 100% of your focus needs to be on that target, only then will begin to start moving up in class. From there, only corrections that should be made, should be suggested by a certified instructor.
 
Thanks for the tips. I agree that everybody's different.

SuperTenere and myself are fortunate to shoot beside some very good shooters. I'm not overly familiar with shotgun classes, but I think there are a couple A, one A Vet and at the comps we are sometimes alongside some Masters. While the Masters took things a little more serious than I prefer, I did watch what they were doing closely and learnt a lot. We also have a past Olympian and Commonwealth competitor who shoot with us on a regular basis. None are certified trainers (albeit one guides at a shooting facility near Calgary), but obviously have valid information to pass on.

I'd also agree that making changes slowly and learning the effects of changes is key.

All this is why shooting shotguns is so rewarding. There are good and bad days, but the bad days means there is just more to learn! I've competed in 3G, speed pistol, PRS, long range/benchrest, and now shotgun. I find shotgun maybe not the most rewarding, but the most driven form of shooting to get better at due to it's variables.

Good times!
 
Started shooting trap at 14 first thing I was taught was to shoot with both eyes open I shoot all firearms with both eyes open including scoped rifles left I domanent right handed shoot off the left shoulder . Won my fair share of trap tournaments back in the day 70'80's90's win you had 60 squads at a shoot not 6 like today
 
I am cross dominant, right handed but my left eye is the boss. I have to shoot with my left eye closed or the whole rib of the shotgun doesn't line up for me. Surprisingly if I hold the gun left handed and open both eyes I can't get a good fit either. There is a very famous woman trap shooter who has shot with one eye closed her entire career, so I am not too worried about it. While hunting I seem to hit birds good enough as well.
 
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