Wk180c charging handle retro-fit kit concept

[lmar]

Been reading about the WK180 charging handle chewing up the interior of the receiver.

Have no idea what the fix is other than what I guess is a threaded charging handle with matching threaded bolt.

I understand this has been a design improvement based on feedback from users.

Seeing I have a rifle with a serial number under 500 - mine came with the original magnet system.

Can't say I was a fan as I am a "positive" engagement type of guy. Liked the concept - but the tolerance on the charging handle was too sloppy which allowed for wiggle (I assume it was so people could reinstall the handle into the bolt without having to fiddle). I believe that with the correct tolerance this concept may have worked as intended.

In addition to resizing my original charging handle to fit my bolt, I was playing with the idea of retrofitting my existing bolt for a screw-in type bolt handle 4-5 months ago but life got in the way.

Note this was around the same time I was playing with an ejection port cover and case deflector shown below:

and associated jig.

Fast forward to today.

My original concept was to modify the existing charging handle for a threaded insert that was press-fit into the original bolt (Think Magpul sling mounts that are pressed into their stocks).

I encountered two problems with this idea.

1. There was no way to tighten the charging handle while threading it into the insert.
2. The original magnet pocket eliminated most of the material I would need to turn-down and thread the original charging handle.

Problem #1 was solved by cutting down a socket head cap screw and inserting it into the existing charging handle hole.
May have introduced a problem by increasing the reciprocating mass of the charging handle and the associated moment (introducing bending moment) in addition to original shear.

Problem #2 could be met by reducing the original charging handle diameter down to .3125 threads - but left little material for the threaded insert.
Could have gone to .250 thread but I believe the original magnet hole would leave very little material left for threads (1/4-20 thread shown in rendering above).

By this time I concluded that it would be easier (and cheaper) to manufacture a new charging handle that incorporated the features I needed.

While I can produce a charging handle that will probably fit every rifle I do not know what the tolerance is on the OEM bolt in order for the insert to be sized properly for a press-fit (not a fan of just using a thread locker).
Was thinking of knurling the insert to allow for some "give" in order to accommodate hole variances.

Anybody have pictures of the new system they can post so I can take a look at what Kodiac made changes look like?

Just wondering if a Kodiac retro-fit kit that consists of a new charging handle and two inserts that could be pressed into the bolt be a relatively simple fix for those who want a simpler upgrade path.

Figure inserts are cheaper than new bolts.

L

 

[cr5]

My 180B-2 charge handle floats freely with no magnet and no threads and it doesn't scratch the receiver. I don't think that the steel receiver of the 180B is the reason it doesn't damage it, it's the loose tolerance of the handle and carrier hole in the 180C that seems to be the issue.
If the charge handle and the hole in the carrier of the were closer to the same size I don't think this would be an issue at all.
The video I watched showed a lot of slop in the charge handle and I think that's the problem, it allows the charge handle to tilt too much allowing it to jam and scrape away material from the softer aluminum receiver.

Is this actually an issue for many or is it still just a couple rifles that have had problems so far?

I don't like the idea of the threaded bolt as it will just come loose over time causing more problems or it will need to be thread locked in requiring tools to break down the rifle.

In my opinion anyone with a rifle that is scraping away the receiver should send it in for warranty repair.
That is not normal wear and tear and should be covered under warranty.
This is not something the consumer should have to come up with a solution to or have to live with.

 

[lmar]

My 180B-2 charge handle floats freely with no magnet and no threads and it doesn't scratch the receiver. I don't think that the steel receiver of the 180B is the reason it doesn't damage it, it's the loose tolerance of the handle and carrier hole in the 180C that seems to be the issue.
If the charge handle and the hole in the carrier of the were closer to the same size I don't think this would be an issue at all.
The video I watched showed a lot of slop in the charge handle and I think that's the problem, it allows the charge handle to tilt too much allowing it to jam and scrape away material from the softer aluminum receiver.

Is this actually an issue for many or is it still just a couple rifles that have had problems so far?

I don't like the idea of the threaded bolt as it will just come loose over time causing more problems or it will need to be thread locked in requiring tools to break down the rifle.

In my opinion anyone with a rifle that is scraping away the receiver should send it in for warranty repair.
That is not normal wear and tear and should be covered under warranty.
This is not something the consumer should have to come up with a solution to or have to live with.

One of my first ideas to test this theory was to knurl the original charging handle to increase its "diameter".
Unsure as to if this method would be sufficient to take up the "slop".

Alternatively, I would get whatever fit I could, and then observe if the increase in "wear" as the rifle was being used.

L

 

[cr5]

One of my first ideas to test this theory was to knurl the original charging handle to increase its "diameter".
Unsure as to if this method would be sufficient to take up the "slop".

Alternatively, I would get whatever fit I could, and then observe if the increase in "wear" as the rifle was being used.

L

Is your rifle affected by it? Sounds like it's only a couple rifles that it's actually causing a problem.

You may be spending time worrying about something that only affects a very small % of the rifles sold so far.

I still think this is a manufacturing issue that should be covered under warranty but it sounds like you like to fiddle and find reasons to play with the lathe so keep up posted with your progress.

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

Not sure if the bolt is soft enough to drill and tap for a helicoil or timecert?

 

[jiffx2781]

Not sure if the bolt is soft enough to drill and tap for a helicoil or timecert?

I'll guarantee you that the average home garage DIY guy with his box of Mastercraft tools is never going to get a hole drilled in that bolt carrier. This isn't going to be an easy at home fix that anyone can do.

 

[cr5]

I'll guarantee you that the average home garage DIY guy with his box of Mastercraft tools is never going to get a hole drilled in that bolt carrier. This isn't going to be an easy at home fix that anyone can do.

Exactly why any affected rifles should be sent back for warranty repair. The average DIY guy is probably going to do more damage than good and will also void the warranty of their rifle at the same time.

I don't understand why so many people seem to be against sending their rifle back to get it fixed properly. I don't know of anyone that buys a new car then refuses to take it back for warranty just so they can struggle to figure out a way to fix the problem themselves.

I'd really like to know how many rifles are actually affected by this problem. Are guys just worrying about their rifle because one or two guys have had problems or is it more widespread? The video I watched of the wobbly charge handle was definitely a manufacturing error that should have been taken care of by Kodiak but I don't see the need for the consumer to come up with a home solution unless this is a widespread problem and Kodiak is refusing to take care of it.

Kodiak should be standing behind any affected rifle not saying it's normal wear and tear. What I saw in those pics is not normal wear for a rifle with only 1000 rounds through it.

 

[iceangler650]

Exactly why any affected rifles should be sent back for warranty repair. The average DIY guy is probably going to do more damage than good and will also void the warranty of their rifle at the same time.

I don't understand why so many people seem to be against sending their rifle back to get it fixed properly. I don't know of anyone that buys a new car then refuses to take it back for warranty just so they can struggle to figure out a way to fix the problem themselves.

I'd really like to know how many rifles are actually affected by this problem. Are guys just worrying about their rifle because one or two guys have had problems or is it more widespread? The video I watched of the wobbly charge handle was definitely a manufacturing error that should have been taken care of by Kodiak but I don't see the need for the consumer to come up with a home solution unless this is a widespread problem and Kodiak is refusing to take care of it.

Kodiak should be standing behind any affected rifle not saying it's normal wear and tear. What I saw in those pics is not normal wear for a rifle with only 1000 rounds through it.

From What I have been told is they are coming up with something for everyone with the magnet handle charging setup not sure if its going to be everyones getting threaded setup or??

 

[lmar]

Not sure if the bolt is soft enough to drill and tap for a helicoil or timecert?

Wasn't planning on drilling into the bolt - the idea is to press-fit a custom insert into the existing hole.

L

 

[Ustauk]

Forgive my ignorance if this has been mentioned elsewhere, or is completely out to lunch, but would wrapping either the handle shaft that sits inside the receiver movement slot, or the extension with the magnet that sites inside the bolt group, or both, with teflon plumbing tape reduce the "play" in the charging handle enough to prevent it wobbling on charging and scraping the receiver? Or would that still friction catch and slow tings enough to cause a problem with the rifle's action?

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

Wasn't planning on drilling into the bolt - the idea is to press-fit a custom insert into the existing hole.

L

Oh yeah it's just if things can be done without custom made parts it's always cheaper that way. Maybe the holes are already to big for a timesert.... I have no idea the dimensions of the old charging handles.

My idea would best be done by the warranty dept, I think its allot more cost effective approach than everyone getting new bolts.

 

[cr5]

From What I have been told is they are coming up with something for everyone with the magnet handle charging setup not sure if its going to be everyones getting threaded setup or??

I don't like the idea of the threaded carrier and bolt handle. I can almost guarantee that it will work itself loose and cause damage to the receiver, or it will need to be torqued in and/or thread locked which will mean that it will require tools to field strip the rifle after that.

If the hole in the carrier and the bolt handle are fairly tight while still allowing it to float in the hole I think the problem would be solved. It seems like it's just that it is such a loose fit that it allows the handle to tilt enough to catch an edge.

Are they all like the one in the video or is it just a couple rifles?
If it's just a couple rifles then I think guys are worrying about nothing. The few that are affected should be sent in for warranty and the rest of the guys should just continue to enjoy their rifle and not worry about it. The steel carrier and bolt handle are unlikely to wear to a point that a good rifle develops enough wobble to cause this.

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

I don't like the idea of the threaded carrier and bolt handle. I can almost guarantee that it will work itself loose and cause damage to the receiver, or it will need to be torqued in and/or thread locked which will mean that it will require tools to field strip the rifle after that.

It has no shoulder to damage anything if it backs out. You could run a regular 6mm bolt if you lost your charge handle.

 

[cr5]

It has no shoulder to damage anything if it backs out. You could run a regular 6mm bolt if you lost your charge handle.

Have you seen pics of the new threaded system? With no shoulder it would be free to fly free during firing potentially creating a hazard of getting hit by the handle if it let go at the back of the cycle, especially for lefty's.

Seems like a more complex solution to a problem that could have been fixed by simply maintaining tighter tolerances when machining the carrier and handle.

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

Have you seen pics of the new threaded system? With no shoulder it would be free to fly free during firing potentially creating a hazard of getting hit by the handle if it let go at the back of the cycle, especially for lefty's.

Seems like a more complex solution to a problem that could have been fixed by simply maintaining tighter tolerances when machining the carrier and handle.

Lol I have an entire rifle with the new threaded charging handle.... its hands down the way to go and was the only reason I bought it over the previous generation. I dont see it as an issue as one already needs tools to disassemble and clean the gas tube and disasemble and clean the bolt/firing pin/trigger group.

this tiny bolt isn't gonna do anything if for some reason mag after mag dump It somehow works loose without me noticing.

 

[lmar]

Have you seen pics of the new threaded system? With no shoulder it would be free to fly free during firing potentially creating a hazard of getting hit by the handle if it let go at the back of the cycle, especially for lefty's.

Seems like a more complex solution to a problem that could have been fixed by simply maintaining tighter tolerances when machining the carrier and handle.

I agree.

Tighter tolerances and a dab of KY Lubricant to create additional suction with an original magnet would probably work.


Cheaper than having to thread two parts and need a tool to dissassemble.

 

[Ironheart]

Is your rifle affected by it? Sounds like it's only a couple rifles that it's actually causing a problem.

You may be spending time worrying about something that only affects a very small % of the rifles sold so far.

I still think this is a manufacturing issue that should be covered under warranty but it sounds like you like to fiddle and find reasons to play with the lathe so keep up posted with your progress.

The issue with the charging handle chewing up the receiver is Not covered by warranty, I had this happen with mine, i sent it back to Kodiak, even with exhausting email communication and phone calls, they would not replace the receiver and just wrote it off as "normal wear and tear"

Never again will I deal with them or any product that is "warrantied" by them.

 

[cr5]

Lol I have an entire rifle with the new threaded charging handle.... its hands down the way to go and was the only reason I bought it over the previous generation. I dont see it as an issue as one already needs tools to disassemble and clean the gas tube and disasemble and clean the bolt/firing pin/trigger group.

this tiny bolt isn't gonna do anything if for some reason mag after mag dump It somehow works loose without me noticing.

That's too bad, my 180B can be stripped down completely with no tools (including the gas system).
Luckily, the gas system should only need to be cleaned every few thousand rounds. My 180B gas system stays pretty clean.
And other than a wipe and a little oil from time to time the bolt and carrier need almost no maintenance as well.

I'd like to see some pics of the new setup. Are you able to post some pics?

The issue with the charging handle chewing up the receiver is Not covered by warranty, I had this happen with mine, i sent it back to Kodiak, even with exhausting email communication and phone calls, they would not replace the receiver and just wrote it off as "normal wear and tear"

Never again will I deal with them or any product that is "warrantied" by them.

I'm shocked they won't take care of that.
That's not the service I expected after the email I got from them answering some questions.


So does anyone know how many rifles are affected? So far it's only two that I know about including yours.
If this is more widespread and they're brushing it off as normal wear and tear it could ruin their sales. Threaded handle now or not, there are quite a few of the older design out there, what are all those owners supposed to do if their rifle kills itself after a couple years and few thousand rounds?

If it's only a couple it would cost them very little to upgrade the affected rifles to the new design. It would be worth it to maintain a solid reputation. They could then take care of people on a case by case basis after that regardless of the one year warranty expiring.
So far it sounds like only a couple were out of spec, if the others are tighter they shouldn't have a problem in the future.
I can't believe they won't fix that.

It's obviously a known problem with the first gen or they wouldn't have come out with the threaded handle and carrier.

I'm sure margins are tight for them to deliver this rifle at this price but they said it has a warranty and they'll stand behind it so...

My advice then is for anyone with a rifle that's showing any sign of weird wear after only a couple hundred rounds to go hard this summer and try to put 5000 rounds or more through your gun so it fails before the year warranty is up. I know it'll be expensive but it should be fun and you'll know if it's normal wear that doesn't affect function or you'll get a new receiver, carrier, and handle when it eats itself.

 

[jhnvan]

Mine is chewing itself up also. Got the same response from them that it's cosmetic. True that the gun still works, but when metal shavings get all up in your trigger group from the receiver, that's not normal wear and tear anymore... I'll be waiting for the new threaded handle from them (hopefully they cover the cost of that).

 

[cr5]

Mine is chewing itself up also. Got the same response from them that it's cosmetic. True that the gun still works, but when metal shavings get all up in your trigger group from the receiver, that's not normal wear and tear anymore... I'll be waiting for the new threaded handle from them (hopefully they cover the cost of that).

How many rounds through your rifle?
Do you think it's going to get worse after a couple thousand more rounds? Or is it more likely to smooth out and stop digging in?
Normal wear does not gouge or shave material.

A new handle probably won't help without a new carrier for it to screw into.