Wonder if governments could be lobbied for using antique breach loaders?

Deano

Deano

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I have been wondering if it would be possible to lobby provincial natural resource departments to modify the rules in muzzleloader season to allow the use of early breech loaders as well as muzzleloaders. I'm thinking of Martini Henry's, Snider Enfields, 71 Mausers, Remington Rolling blocks, Springfield trapdoors etc. These are really 100 yard guns in a hunting sense (muzzle velocities of 1300-1600 fps. They are single shot and fire large diameter bullets. Seems a fair chance for the deer, compared to the muzzleloaders available. The faster reload is offset by the the newer muzzleloaders have better speed (over 2000 fps) and often telescopic sights. Seems like the old breechloaders stack up pretty reasonably in an apples to apples comparison, so I can't see there being an "it's not fair/ethical" argument.

What are some of your thoughts? Is my reasoning off base? I'd like to hear from folks and get some opinions, so feel free to chip in.
 
Yeah that's how it starts. Then your going to want to hunt with a bolt action, then an automatic assault rifle. Just kidding. Try and lobby your government. I understand what you're saying though. I shoot a smokeless ml.
 
There is already enough debate among hunters themselves about traditional front stuffers vs today's modern muzzleloaders. I can never see enough people uniting and coming together to change the governments mind and allowing a breach loaded rifle that takes cartridges.

Easiest argument against it is what about a Ruger #1? Etc.... And then it goes on from there. It's more about the mechanism and its inability to make quick successive shots, a breach loader is by no means slow or inaccurate. I know of a few single shot rifle users that can easily compete with any bolt action repeater when it comes to accurately placing multiple shots on target.
 
Trouble is, your case could be phrased as "single shot rifle season".

If they accepted your argument and implemented it, their next step could be to say "Well, now that you've demonstrated you can hunt perfectly well with a single shot rifle, we're going to change to hunting regulations to only allow single shot rifles, period".
 
Cleftwynd said:
There is already enough debate among hunters themselves about traditional front stuffers vs today's modern muzzleloaders. I can never see enough people uniting and coming together to change the governments mind and allowing a breach loaded rifle that takes cartridges.

Easiest argument against it is what about a Ruger #1? Etc.... And then it goes on from there. It's more about the mechanism and its inability to make quick successive shots, a breach loader is by no means slow or inaccurate. I know of a few single shot rifle users that can easily compete with any bolt action repeater when it comes to accurately placing multiple shots on target.
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A special season for #1's? I'm in!! I LUV my #1!! :rockOn:
 
Too convtrovertial IMO.

Already we have in-line modern muzzleloading rifles, right alongside more tradional flintlock/caplock rifles, that are viewed as equal deer hunting rifles in some provinces.

There is no comparison when one rifle can mount modern optics and shoots as flat as a 308 rifle with sub calibre sabots and using copper jacketed pistol bullets.

my 2 bits only
 
I've been told by a 'Fish Cop' that a Snider Enfield loaded with 24 Ga Mag-tech brass...is a shotgun and can be used as such. If you have a shotgun only deer season of course.
Frankly, I'm of the opinion that the only thing that should be considered a ML ( Or BP ) is one with a hammer on the side. Trad, the English folk might say
In-lines are a D-bag move IMO...Primitive Weapons...hello? It's got a plastic stock and often a scope...really? Kinda bastardizes the whole primitive weapons concept doesn't it?
Some guys just have to push the envelope til it gets revoked. Suspect that's what happened in AB a few years ago.
And...yep...Cranky Old Fart is out from under the stairs. Admitting that right off the bat.
 
tokguy said:
I've been told by a 'Fish Cop' that a Snider Enfield loaded with 24 Ga Mag-tech brass...is a shotgun and can be used as such. If you have a shotgun only deer season of course.
Frankly, I'm of the opinion that the only thing that should be considered a ML ( Or BP ) is one with a hammer on the side. Trad, the English folk might say
In-lines are a D-bag move IMO...Primitive Weapons...hello? It's got a plastic stock and often a scope...really? Kinda bastardizes the whole primitive weapons concept doesn't it?
Some guys just have to push the envelope til it gets revoked. Suspect that's what happened in AB a few years ago.
And...yep...Cranky Old Fart is out from under the stairs. Admitting that right off the bat.
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Okay, your post made me chuckle. I'm 45, and I work with mostly younger guys (20s). I once got to work with a guy my own age, and we were referred to as "The Geritol Crew". Just giggling at the cranky old fart.

My reasoning for the original post was that I considered an antique rifle, like a Trapdoor or a Snider to be pretty primitive. Shooting black powder cartridges at comparative low velocity seemed to me to be in the spirit of a primitive weapon. I certainly wouldn't use one in General rifle season.
 
All told, what stops a pistol caliber rifle from being in the same category? I shoot a lever .44 magnum for rifle season, but it's not far off of a muzzleloader when you use iron sights, let alone a 20 gauge rifle or one of the new "smokeless poles". What about a Beretta storm in .45 acp, or a Theron defense in .40 s and w? It's not an easy thing to regulate, so I do understand why they say shotgun muzzleloader only, do I agree maybe not, but I do understand. Perhaps there could simply be a shotgun, muzzleloader, black powder cartridge and pistol cartridge season?
 
skokie said:
All told, what stops a pistol caliber rifle from being in the same category? I shoot a lever .44 magnum for rifle season, but it's not far off of a muzzleloader when you use iron sights, let alone a 20 gauge rifle or one of the new "smokeless poles". What about a Beretta storm in .45 acp, or a Theron defense in .40 s and w? It's not an easy thing to regulate, so I do understand why they say shotgun muzzleloader only, do I agree maybe not, but I do understand. Perhaps there could simply be a shotgun, muzzleloader, black powder cartridge and pistol cartridge season?
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I guess I got to say it. Mostly because the whole point of a seperate deer season is the harvest tool being of some kind of more primitive means, then a typical rifle using a bottle necked cartridge.

The extra challenge of closer hunting distances and only one sporting chance (non-repeater) right??

BTW, I own two 45-70s with another in my safe keeping and a 44 trapper, and I get the staus quo.
 
I'm for anything that will get more guys out hunting more often. It's more difficult to curtail our sport if more people are doing it.

Having said that, I don't know where you would draw the line on that one.

Pennsylvania came out with a "flintlock only" season and then Traditions designed a flintlock that could shoot with pellets instead of loose powder for no other reason then to get around the "intent" of the restriction.

Other places "must use a roundball" etc.

My 380 falling block predates the inline muzzleloader by about 100 years, could I use that? Is "date of mfg" the standard? - so it would be an "antique season" instead of a black powder or traditional season - where my Pieper is OK but a new Lyman Great Plains sidelock is NOT?

Even province to province the rules look nothing the same - most don't recognize a crossbow as a bow even though it was around for about 1000 years before a compound.

When I lived in NFLD you couldn't use a 22 rimfire to hunt rabbits (actually couldn't use a 22 to hunt anything).

Ontario designated a bunch of Wildlife units "shotgun only" for deer because they figured it was safer (due to being farming communities and worried about bullets travelling) but they allow rifled barrels and sabot's which travel great distances compared to slugs/buckshot AND if you are hunting bear in the exact same area you CAN use a rifle - go figure.

So I guess my point is - the odds of getting something like you are asking is probably pretty low unless you could get every hunting organization in your province "on board" and they lobbied the snot out of your Wildlife Ministry for many years over multiple administrations.

In Ontario we lost our spring bear hunt due to "public pressure", it's taken about 4 government changes but we are getting it back most probably because of the cost to province and municipalities in dealing with the bear problems as a result (or maybe because they screwed our moose season and the outfitters got together and cried real loud, so they gave back the bear hunt to mitigate the potential loss in tax revenue, not because they wanted to do something "for hunters").

To get another or a special season or a change to an existing one, you have to convince them that there is an economic benefit or a chance to grab some votes before anything changes.
 
Brutus said:
I guess I got to say it. Mostly because the whole point of a seperate deer season is the harvest tool being of some kind of more primitive means, then a typical rifle using a bottle necked cartridge.

The extra challenge of closer hunting distances and only one sporting chance (non-repeater) right??

BTW, I own two 45-70s with another in my safe keeping and a 44 trapper, and I get the staus quo.
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It's funny you mention closer hunting distances. Where I hunt for deer in rifle season is on the west side of Algonquin park, a fairly dense forest, lots of hills, where the longest shot I've ever taken was about 75 feet. Whereas the area I go to for the shotgun/muzzleloader hunt is just northeast of Hamilton where you're in mostly flat, open farmers fields and guys are shooting deer out to 250 yards with a rifled 20 gauge bolt action rifle and sabot slugs. I think it's just an incredibly difficult thing to regulate, because of all the factors involved. As galamb says, where do you draw the line? Is a single shot .577 snider ok but a .45-70 isn't? Etc etc. It becomes a nightmare to decide which calibers are suitable and which are not, then try to regulate that with any type of effetiveness. I will say this, whereas you can only hunt deer with a shotgun, muzzleloader or bow in most places below highway 89 in Ontario, it's completely legal to use a .270 wsm or Weatherby to shoot coyotes or gophers in the many of the same places, explain that one!
 
Deano said:
...Martini Henry's, Snider Enfields, 71 Mausers, Remington Rolling blocks, Springfield trapdoors etc. These are really 100 yard guns in a hunting sense (muzzle velocities of 1300-1600 fps. They are single shot and fire large diameter bullets....
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With the exception of the Trapdoor, I've shot all of those (and a lot), and I'm confident that if I had to, that I could easily get five (5) accurate shots off at 100 yds in less than a minute with any of them. I'm confident too that targets (live or paper) well past 100 yds could fall victim to them.
 
Brutus said:
I guess I got to say it. Mostly because the whole point of a seperate deer season is the harvest tool being of some kind of more primitive means, then a typical rifle using a bottle necked cartridge.

The extra challenge of closer hunting distances and only one sporting chance (non-repeater) right??

BTW, I own two 45-70s with another in my safe keeping and a 44 trapper, and I get the staus quo.
Click to expand...

This statement I agree with. The AB ML season used to start just after archery IIRC.
After they closed the ML season, you couldn't hardly give away an in-line in this corner of the province. Which; while the closing sucked, ironically the in-line people lost their investment ( for the most part ) in their loophole rifles...God don't punish with a stick, eh?
 
Where I hunt in Ontario is muzzleloader only for the controlled hunts. No mention of primitive weapons. I have hunted with traditional style side lock guns (traditions remake of the Hawkins) I hate #11 caps. I also hunt with several types of in lines. I see no difference. Yes my in lines are scoped but that old side hammer with irons groups just as good at 100 yards. Sadly even better than the rifle I carry most.
Would I like to carry an antique Remington rolling block in 50/70 you bet I would but then even more ppl will have access. That means even more hunters trespassing. Southern west Ontario already has more hunters then bush land. I hate the fact that gun folk are for the most part separatists. What they shoot is best and what they have should be used for everything and nothing else matters. There was a push to get shotguns in my area of which I'd love to hunt with the many I own but the land owners don't want the extra ppl. Their voice was if they allowed shotguns they wouldn't let anyone hunt their land.
Bottom line is if you have a shotgun season be happy and use a shotgun. Dont ##### if someone uses a type you don't like. Same for muzzleloaders. Same for bows and crossbows. If they meet the legal requirements why complain?
If you want to hunt in the controlled hunt buy a firearm designed for that season.
 
brybenn said:
Where I hunt in Ontario is muzzleloader only for the controlled hunts. No mention of primitive weapons. I have hunted with traditional style side lock guns (traditions remake of the Hawkins) I hate #11 caps. I also hunt with several types of in lines. I see no difference. Yes my in lines are scoped but that old side hammer with irons groups just as good at 100 yards. Sadly even better than the rifle I carry most.
Would I like to carry an antique Remington rolling block in 50/70 you bet I would but then even more ppl will have access. That means even more hunters trespassing. Southern west Ontario already has more hunters then bush land. I hate the fact that gun folk are for the most part separatists. What they shoot is best and what they have should be used for everything and nothing else matters. There was a push to get shotguns in my area of which I'd love to hunt with the many I own but the land owners don't want the extra ppl. Their voice was if they allowed shotguns they wouldn't let anyone hunt their land.
Bottom line is if you have a shotgun season be happy and use a shotgun. Dont ##### if someone uses a type you don't like. Same for muzzleloaders. Same for bows and crossbows. If they meet the legal requirements why complain?
If you want to hunt in the controlled hunt buy a firearm designed for that season.
Click to expand...

Exactly!.... Well said
 
You will get more resistance from the muzzleloader guys than anyone else. A bullet doesn't know whether the powder charge is contained in a cartridge, or if the hammer is on the side, bottom or a in-line striker. The game doesn't have a preference in the manner it is killed. The game department shouldn't care what method anyone uses, just that the harvest is sustainable. Likewise, tradition or self inflicted handicaps (or self agrandisation) should have nothing to do with what someone else will be allowed to use. Doing things the hard way doesn't make one a better person, and those that chose the hard way are suspiciously selective about the specific hard way they use. Hunting blindfolded, or barefoot or with one hand tied behind your back would be plenty hard but for some strange reason aren't popular. Strange, that one.

So why do hunters wish to inflict their personal preference on everyone else? The reality is they view other hunters as competition and would rather they not go at all, unless it is somewhere else.
 
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