Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No.4Mk1 Stock-set

K

kajn65

Member
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Location
Dartmouth, N.S.
Hi CGN members,

I recently purchased (March 24th) a British Walnut (so it was advertized as) No.4Mk1 Stock-set for my BSA-Shirley .303 British Lee-Enfield rifle off ebay. This stock-set is in Excellent+++ condition; and has been on a rifle before.

On the Butt Stock of this new set, there is a Proof Mark I have no reference history of. This mark is located on the bottom face of the Butt Stock next to the end that inserts into the rifle's Butt Socket.

This Proof Mark is similar to Savage's Square Boxed "S" proof mark; both in size and type of letter font. The only difference is that there is a capital "P" inside this box instead of the capital "S".

Would anyone on CGN have any information about this Wood Proof Mark? It's meaning, manufacture, etc., etc.? A fellow Lee-Enfield collector out of Moncton, N.B. thinks this a Proof Mark from the POF (Pakistan Ordinace Farctory), indicating that it's made of Pakistan Walnut instead of British Walnut, as advertised. Is this true? He doesn't know for sure and is trying to reseach this as well. Please advise soonest!

If this is true, the seller will be contacted asap (so will ebay and (FRAUD ALERT)) and advised of such; and will more than likely be sent back to the seller (at his cost) as this was not listed in his advertisement of this stock-set. Hence, the urgency in knowing the information about the mark. Please quote your source(s) of this Wood Proof Mark, as it will be passed onto the seller as well.

Any advise as what to about this matter, would also be greatly appreciated.

I eagerly await your replies to this matter.

Thanks in adance.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
Your friend is correct about the proof mark. P = POF (Pakistan Ordinance Factory).

Does yours have the cross screw in the forearm? If not your good!

Some of the wood was actually machined in England before the tooling was moved to POF. The wood quality is excellent walnut being dark, figured and dense. Most of the wood being sold on eBay has come out of the British depot at Woolwich. If new, it's in
a factory wrapper and will have this label. If unwrapped the only identifier is the inspection mark and date....lots available in the UK as it was just recently sold out of service.

In summary...it's replacement wood for the British No1 MK1 or 11, walnut, correct profile and BLO finished. It's stamped with a "P" inspection mark and a date since it was manufactured under this contract. All 4 pieces should have this mark on it if you purchased a set. These sets are a lot less money than original war time produced components. It's an economical way to refurbish "bubba'd" Enfields.

Hope this helps, Ron
 
Last edited:
Hi Keyan,

Hmm, no definite answer on my side yet (I'll dig a little) but at this point, I think we'd be jumping to conclusions if we assumed that 1. That "P" stood for Pakistan and that 2. most sellers could / should be able to tell one type of dark Lee Enfield wood from another.

I'll see if I can find a bit more in a few books here, someone should have the answer somewhere :)

Lou
 
Century Arms in the USA has recently sold a large quantity of POF wood Foreams and handguards I suspect your items came from that lot.
 
I've read on here that it will require fitting. People have found the bands won't close up over the groove etc.
Still, it's the only game in town for new Enfield wood.
 
keep an eye on where the actions recoil bands meet up as well, my POF wood had the beds all chewed up, I had to chisel them out and replace them with brass shims

I picked up a piece of lovely walnut marked with a D off ebay, finished off a 1916 enfield made no1 mk3,
 
Re: Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No.4Mk1 Stock-Set

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the response and the help in this matter.

As I said earlier, this set appears to have already been on a rifle. I assume the fit would be okay.

The forestock has no markings what-so-ever.

One of the upper hand guards has a British Broad-arrow mark along with the stamping "SL". That I know is of British manufacture.

The other hand guard on had a stamping of what appears to be a large number "3" (I first thought it was a capital "B" until I had a look with a magnifying glass.) and a outline of a diamond symbol (like on the deck of cards). I don't know the origin of this one.

The butt stock has a capital "P" surrounded by a square box, similar to a Savage mark.

I would like to know if this is an "actual British Walnut stock-set", as it was advertised. If this isn't the case, I will advise the seller, ebay and (FRAUD ALERT) of such. May end up send this set back to seller and ask for another set; or at least ask if I can get a lower purchase price for it. I paid $200.00 USD for the set + $27.00 USD for shipping (a total of $238.00 CDN).

The set also can with a bolt head tool; repro sling; front sight guard with scew; all the metal bands, sling swivels, steel butt plate (may be a repro?) and all the screws.

Please advise soonest what you can find.

Thanks agin for your help.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
If you can post a picture or give us the eBay item number we can look up the detail. The set, whether is bears a variety of markings or not, are all British. It's a British No4 MK1 stock set regardless. P was a contract for POF until the late 1950's manufactured in Britain. If it were dated 60 or later the the component would have been manufactured at POF. If it was advertised as all matching stampings, then you would have a case. If you have regrets in buying this item check the Sellers return policy. If your unhappy with your purchase or his return policy contact the Seller and voice your concern. This is the first step in eBay's resolution protocol. Neither eBay nor (FRAUD ALERT) will do anything for you or the Seller until this step is complete.
 
Re: Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No.4Mk1 Stock-Set

Hi Guys,

One other thing that I forgot to mention or point out about the Steel Butt Plate. From what I've been told from one source (and I question his accuracy on the subject to some degree with some reservation and ignorance) which leads the Steel Butt Plate to being a possible repro or post-war production (not comfirmed yet, still researching), concerns the channel that allows one finger to out the Butt Plate's Trap Door.

On this Butt Plate, the channel is short in length compaired to the ones that I have seen (brass, steel, alloy type). This channel is also shallow in depth; and narrow in width compaired to other various butt plates referenced.

As far as the opening of the Trap Door goes, one cannot open it with his or her fingers; and must use some sort of tool (preferred of a stiff plastic type so as to not damage its protective finish). The plate also appears to be the painted type; or maybe even parkerized. I'll admit that I'm not to familiar with the later type. Hence, the questions of it being a repro or post-war manufacture; or, best case senario, New Old Stock (NOS).

The stiffness I can understand due to lack of use as this could be a NOS Steel Butt Pate; and will free up over time after more use.

So this leads to another question: Is the butt plate NOS, repro or Post-WW2 production? How can one tell? No proof marks are visible on the outside of the butt plate; and it is installed on the Butt Stock. Would any Proof Marks be on the underside of the butt plate? I know there may even be a possiblity of no markings being on the plate as well.

Just more information I'd thought to add to this inquiry of mine.

However, when push comes to shove, and if I keep the Stock-Set, I will nore than likely replace it with a NOS Brass Butt Plate in order to keep it in line with the furnishings used when it was manufactured at BSA-Shirley (October 1941-according to my research based on production numbers and the rifle's serial numbers).

Please also note that I have yet to examine the metal furnishings that came with this stock-set. I'll let you all know what I find.

Again, thanks for your all your assistance on the subject.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
Re: Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No.4Mk1 Stock-Set

Hi Guys,

In response to rgg 7's request in his last post, here is the ebay ID#:

# 200453282224

Don't get me wrong here guys. The looks of this stock-set is very good indeed. The colour on all the wooden pieces almost matches perfectly. The wood does look like it has been cleaned up and recoated with Linseed Oil or some other finish; and has the odd ding or scratch (all though minimal) here and there, which I expect. It may have been stained to make the wood pieces match, however, I cannot tell the difference here.

My main concern about the stock set and metal furnishings is the confirmation of the origin of materials and of manufacture, as advertised. I know I am new to the Lee-Enfield Rifle Restoration game; and I'm probably holding some biased, ignoranant reservations as to what is what. This will go away in time as I gain more knowledge and experiance to this hobby. Hence, my questions and/or concerns to more experianced people of this forum.

I just want to make sure I'm getting what I'm paying for ... an actual complete British made No.4Mk1 stock-set with British Walnut. This is what is originally on my rifle (FTR'd (F) /49 with new BSA-Shirley heavy-barrel and new machined Mk1 rear site. Original mag has been swapped out to a Savage made one. This is where the stock-set has been sporterized; as the rifle was made for resale in North America (My father purchased this rifle from Sears Canada Inc. in 1965 or 1966 for just $65.00 or $66.00 CDN as his first hunting rifle.). Again, any assistance to educate me on this subject would be forever greatly apreciated.

To give further information of rgg 7's request, here is the listing information and seller name from ebay:

LEE ENFIELD NO4MK1 WALNUT STOCK COMPLETE PARTS SET

-ORIGINAL BRITISH SURPLUS

-LEE ENFIELD NO4 MK1 RESTORATION KIT (WALNUT)

-INCLUDED: -FOREARM (WALNUT)

-FRONT HANDGUARD (WALNUT)

-REAR HANDGUARD (WALNUT) GROOVED TYPE

-BUTT STOCK (WALNUT) SIZE L LONG

-FRONT SIGHT GUARD WITH SCREW

-MIDDLE BAND WITH SCREW AND SLING SWIVEL

-HANDGUARD RING

-REAR SLING SWIVEL WITH SCREWS

-STEEL BUTT PLATE

-SLING AND BOLT TOOL

-SLING (REPRODUCTION)

-ALL IN EXCELLENT +++ CONDITION

-BUYNOW PURCHASE PRICE: $200.00 USD + $27.00
USD FOR SHIPPING (TOTAL: $238.00 CDN)

-SELLER INFO: lathearn (2860 *)
99.0% Positive feedback

-ITEM LOCATION: Gray, Maine, United States

I will post pictures when I can. Cannot do right now because I'm at work and my Home PC is dead (expensive paper wieght). Will try and get a friend of mine to post them for you asap.

I hope this information is of some help to you all.

Many, many, many thanks.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
Thanks for posting the eBay listing.....I've reviewed the listing and my only concern would be the Seller's statement "Original British Surplus" is not sustaniated.. There's no evidence in the advertisement such a markings or labels to support the statement. The marks such as SL, P provided todate are British marks. IMO, the seller has put together a restoration kit from a number of British parts. The metal parts also should have marks or British broad arrows, painted finish to be correct. Is this the case?

The pictures certain show a quality set...usually they're quite beat up and require some work to get them to a presentable level. The price you paid for the package is not out of line for what I see.

I gather the Enfield has a lot of sentimental value and you want to do it up right. You mention that the rifle was FTR'd in 49. The correct wood set for this is "beech" with F49 marked metal components. To find these parts is very time consuming and most likely set you back double what you paid. The set you have will certainly work and look fantastic on your Enfield.

Just my opinion. I have no connections to either the Buyer or Seller.

Other folks may have a different opinion,

Ron
 
I did recheck the Sellers listing....has a return policy listed and a very postive feedback. If you're not happy with the deal, all it will cost you is the return shipping. FYI, Ron
 
Re: Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No4Mk1 Stock-Set

Hi Ron (and others),

I'm glad you could access the ebay photos. I wasn't sure that they would be available to look at. I made sure that I had kept a copy of it for reference material for Canada Customs if needed.

Yes, the rifle does have strong sentimental value for obvious reasons-historic and finacial values. My now deceased Grandfather (mother's side) was also a WW2 Vetran (ex artilaryman). The weapon type was probably his service issue weapon as well. This strongly holds some merrit on the restoration subject as well.

The rifle was built by BSA-Shirley (code M47C). The first digit of the rifle's serial number (3###x) also confirms this. The last digit of the year of manufacture is unreadable; and was probably built in October 1941, based on the rifle's serial number and the BSA-Shirley's production figures obtained from Ian Skennerton's book, "The Lee-Enfield Story". I know further research is required to confirm this original production date. Any ideas on that?

It is my understanding from conversations with various collectors and dealers at gun shows over the past several years, that when the rifle was overhauled ... ROF (F) FTR /49 ... it retained the original high-grade British Walnut stock from when it was first built. Is this true? I'm also basing this from the information obtained from the above mentioned reference book. This explains my wish to have a full and complete British stock-set in a High-Grade British Walnut. I have no idea what would would have been used during this overhaul. I only know that the best wood type was used during this part of the rifle's history. At least that's what I've been advised.

Thanks again for the help on this. I eagerly await your (and others) information on this unknown Wood Proof Mark. Please advise soonest.

In the meantime, do you think I still contact the seller and inquire from him what this mark is and express my concerns over it? I just don't want to make myself look like a fool due to lack of inexperience; or un-necessarily point the finger at him for trying to pull a fast one over me without having all the facts on hand first.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
Re: Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No4Mk1 Stock-Set

Hi Guys,

The forearm does not have a cross screw.

Please remember, the "P" is surrounded by a Square Mark, like that of a Savage-Stevens Mark, a Boxed Square "S".

Lou, have you had any luck in looking through your reference books for this stamping?

I just sent an email today to an ebay seller who actually sells Pakistani No4Mk1 Stock-Sets in Walnut. I hope he will have an answer to the nagging question. If he does, I'll post his answer here for everyone reference.

Thanks again for all those who are trying to help.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
Wood Froof Mark on British No4Mk1 Stock Set

Hi Guys,

The only metal part that appears to be painted is the Butt Plate and Screws (at least their heads).

I'll post more info on the parts when I can.

Thanks again.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
Sorry Keyan, looked in the literature I have here and didn't find anything useful.

You could ask the seller what is the source of his information, why did he state the wood was British; nothing disrespectful there, in my opinion.

Lou
 
Re: Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No4Mk1 Stock-Set

Hi Lou,

I emailed the seller yesterday. He advises it is a Parker Hale Mark, who are from England.

I'm going to send an email to Ian Skennerton to have this confirmed. If you or anyone here can confirm this for me (list sources) that would be great.

Thanks for your help.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
You know Keyan, I think you got new or near-new wood, with the parts matching in color, and with all the metal bits that allow you to retrofit a No4Mk1 rifle to original condition no matter where the wood came from, you still paid a decent price. I looked at the listing 200453282224 on Ebay, that's a very nice kit. When you buy a sling it's about $20, the firing pin tool another $20. Used wood kits with dings and scratches sell from $100 to $150. You did get a decent deal.

I mean, the seller did get the right metal parts together and got the right forend for the right rifle. Already that's better than what could be expected from most Ebay sellers in my opinion. So unless there was a serious flaw (like getting a forend for a No1Mk3 when the seller mentioned it was for a NO4, or missing half the metal bits, something like that), I personally wouldn't mind. But your perspective may be different.

Lou
 
Re: Wood Proof Mark on British Walnut No4Mk1 Stock Set

Hi Lou and Others,

No arguments from me on that subject. I thought it was a really nice stock parts kit too, especially for that price. I wish it had an original sling and a NOS brass Butt Plate and Screws but I'm not overly worried about that. I can pick them up later on. The main thing was the full wood set and the metal furature; and their origins. It was a good deal indeed. That's why I jumped on it when I did. The ebay picture didn't do the wood 100% justice colour wise. The wood appeared lighter in the picture than what it actually is, which is good. I'm very, very impressed with it all. I'm glad I got it when I did. I wouldn't have been available for very long I'm sure.

Maybe it's just where I'm new to this restoration and collecting thing. I want to document all the stampings and proof marks that are on the rifle so that I can have it appraised once it is fully restored to its war-time configuration. After all, it is a family heirloom and an investment that will be passed down to my son; and to his children's children, assuming the Canadian Government we have now doesn't strip that right away from us in the future.

I can't wait to see what it will look like when it this kit is installed on the rifle. It will be one fine looking speciemen that is for sure.

If I can remember it, I'll take some photos of my No4mk1 rifle before and after the restoration work (and if possible the steps in between) and post them here for everyone to see.

It is nice to know now what that Proof Mark means. I just now have to find and obtain a copy of a reference source that confirms this for my records. Hence, the search continues.

Thannks again Lou, Ron and others on this forum. Your assistance have helped me tremendously.

Rgs...Keyan (kajn65)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom