Would like to understand this group !!

Charles

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Hi guys

I try to understand why i have obtained this group today.

These have be done with my .308 custom who shoot usally under the 1/2moa in the 200 yards range what my club allows.

My questioning:

How can you shoot 5 shots under 0.1 moa at 100 yards with a big change in fps like that.

First shot: 2813 fps
2: 2751
3: 2789
4: 2827
5: 2836

I really dont understand.
My assusption is that maybe my chrony suck or that a big standard deviation and extreme spread does not affect accuracy at short range.

In fact, at 600 yards with this kind of SD i'm in a big #### but why thats not affect accuracy at 100 yards.

If you have explanations guys this will be nice.

BTW here the pics:

IMG_0281.jpg


With this pic take behind the target we can better see the group.

IMG_0279.jpg


thanks
Charles
 
A quick look at JBM Bullet Traj Calc and you can see it for yourself. Short range its so small you won't notice but at 1000 yards its night and day.

Here are the numbers I crunched with your exact bullet specs
I used 90yards as the sight in so it shows a number at 100yd instead of zero

Drop in Inches

Velocity - - -100yds- - -1000yds
2751 - - - - - 0.1" - - - - 354"
2836 - - - - - 0.1" - - - -330"
 
OUfff the numbers speak for themselves !!!

Thanks for the info.

But man i have to take another chrony to make somes tests.

I dont understand all this spread in the speed.

I have neck sized the cases with the Lee collet die.
Weighed all my charge with the RCBS 1500 scale.
Seated the bullets with a forster micrometer and checked all the bullets with the sinclair concentrcity gauge and no run-out greater that 0.002.

I will find another chrony and post the results.

thanks





A quick look at JBM Bullet Traj Calc and you can see it for yourself. Short range its so small you won't notice but at 1000 yards its night and day.

Here are the numbers I crunched with your exact bullet specs
I used 90yards as the sight in so it shows a number at 100yd instead of zero

Drop in Inches

Velocity - - -100yds- - -1000yds
2751 - - - - - 0.1" - - - - 354"
2836 - - - - - 0.1" - - - -330"
 
Collet dies are not good for adjusting neck tension. Most hard-core types use a busing die of some sort. Depending on how work-hardened the brass has become, the neck tension could be all over the map. Also, powder charge accuracy, primer type and even how long a round stayed chambered in a warm barrel can affect velocities.

Do you weigh your charges or volume dump? There could also be the "fluke factor" with one really good group (a lesson I have learned the hard way)
 
As mentionned, velocity variation is not much of an issue at 100; at 1000 it is significant.
One five shot group might be pretty, but it is statistically meaningless.
 
Yes, i have done all the prep, weighed each cases and charge with a rcbs 1500.

Seated all bullets 0.017 of the riffling who is my best load.

Obtunded: Maybe thats can have a impact in the neck tension if this is the 15e time i reload these group of brass.

My concern is in the speed spread, because i would like to try my first compete in the F-class this year and i know that with this spread i would not be in the V-bull.


Stubblejumber: yes your group look much smaller than mine. I have checked the group a few times and i think this is just under 0.1 moa. Tough to take with the little piece of papper, i will shoot on cardbord next time. I think he have a program who can measured the grouping, but i dont know who sell this ?

Btw nice group Stubblejumper !
 
Obtunded: Maybe thats can have a impact in the neck tension if this is the 15e time i reload these group of brass.

My concern is in the speed spread, because i would like to try my first compete in the F-class this year and i know that with this spread i would not be in the V-bull.

Again, Collet dies are not a good way of contolling neck tension. You may be over-working the brass from a combination of throat diameter and collet die use.

It may only take 3-4 firings to make brass stiff enough to make a measurable difference - or not. There are other variables, and there is no way lapua brass weight differences will impact velocities that much.

It may also be just the chrony...
 
Thanks Snowboy

Obtunded: I have started with redding dies and switched for collet dies this year.

I think that tension could be the problem like you have say. I have noticed that sometimes i have to put more forces when i seat a bullet.

What size neck bushing do i need ?

I have 0.344 to the neck after a case is fired.
 
If it was me, I would shoot it again in different light conditions to make sure my chrony is not leading me on a wild poultry chase before tearing my equip up. I try not to do anything drastic based on one grouping.
 
Thanks Snowboy

Obtunded: I have started with redding dies and switched for collet dies this year.

I think that tension could be the problem like you have say. I have noticed that sometimes i have to put more forces when i seat a bullet.

What size neck bushing do i need ?

I have 0.344 to the neck after a case is fired.

First off, very good group!
It is very hard to see the effects of 80fps difference at this range, with most bargin chronies, even if the light is good you can easily see an error of +/- 30 fps, so in reality your spread may only be 20 fps, How much variation do you get in your chrony values? Is this a normal phenomenon?

Finally, for bushings you need to measure your necks, this will vary from batch to batch and supplier to supplier so you really have to measure them, this is best done with a ball micrometer or some other device designed to measure brass necks, if you use a vernier it will overestimate thickness, but at least you will have a consistent error.

Bushing size for match rounds is generally (2x(neck thickness) + (bullet diameter)) - 2 thou.
 
Charles, best thing you can to is shoot this load at 200 to 300yds/m. This is precisely why I do not test at 100yds. So many things can get masked especially issues with velocity dispersion.

And also why I don't bother shooting over a Chrony anymore. We are using a device where the built in error is LARGER then the data we are trying to analyse.

Instead I shoot at longer distances under the calm conditions if possible (at least steady conditions). I shoot 3rds groups and look for accuracy nodes and orientations of the group. When you get near the accuracy node, you WILL see a tendency in the group to orientate vertically or horizontally.

When shooting a few groups at each load level, you will see one load where more bullets are flat, where another load, more bullets are tall. The differences in these loads can be as small as 0.1gr in a 308 size case. And Yes, you need a precise scale and WEIGHED charges to see this.

Depending on the barrel, bullet (match quality of course) and how the rifle is shot, you can pretty much dial out vertical dispersion at longer distances. The mechanical accuracy of the rifle will stay the same BUT the orientation of the group will "clock" or rotate from looking like a football on its side vs on its tip.

It is fussy tuning but once you see this and how it affects your groups way out there, it is well worth the time.

This method has also shown me how pressures can affect dispersion. Whenever loads get past magnum pressure ranges, dispersion at long distances grows much faster then expected ie 1/2 min at 300yds suddenly becomes MOA at 500yds and min of plywood at 1000yds.

If you find you are getting alot of dispersion at longer distances, I have an article on my website that can help you diagnose and tune for better performance.

As for the Lee collet die, I use it alot. I also sell Redding and Forster bushing dies alot. Both work very well but they each have their quirks. The key is matching it to your set of variables and needs.

If you can, measure the neck thickness of the Lapua cases. Is there variations now that they have been fired a few times (brass flows after every firing)? If you have to trim, you likely also have to neck turn.

If the necks are at 14 thou or thicker, I consider that too much especially since Lapua alloy is tough. I would like to see 10 to 12 thou.

Measure case neck diameters after sizing. If you are creating more then 2 thou of neck tension, that is too much in Lapua brass. you can either neck turn thinner if you want to keep using the collet die or go to a larger bushing to suit.

But you have 1 very nice looking group. Shoot more groups and see how it goes. maybe this was a one of, maybe this is normal. When you determine a trend, it will be much easier to know what to do.

When you find your ideal load, THEN shoot it over a chrony to see what the box tells you for velocity. I use this only because I need something to put into the ballistics program to generate a drop chart.

I know that the input speed is exactly and precisely WRONG....

But I will be close enough to see the splat.

Good luck...

Jerry

PS, noticed that your target said you were shooting in 15kph winds. That is quite a bit and can blow bullets INTO a group just as much as it can blow it out. More testing required.
 
What size neck bushing do i need ?

I have 0.344 to the neck after a case is fired.

Load 5 cases with bullets and measure the neck of the loaded rounds. Take an average of the 5 and subtract .002 from that and that will be the bushing size you want.

My .284, based on neck thicknes x 2 + bullet diameter should be .309 but most rounds are .3095 and .310 so I am using a .308 bushing.
 
Because, for the most part, this change in velocity reflects a steady INCREASE, can it be attributed to expansion of the chamber and/or bore as it warms up (less resistance to the bullets passage)?

Not likely as usually the opposite would occur, as the barrel warms up less resistance = less pressure to build up and push the bullet, as such velocity will usually have a small drop as the barrel heats up.
 
0.071 am i missing something here ? isn't that 71thou or 1.82mm, i'm new to the moa thing i thought 1moa at 100yds was approx 1 inch please educate me or point out the obvious i missed!!!
 
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