WS-MCR and the FRT

Mr Wolverine

Mr Wolverine

CGN Regular
Location
Manitoba. Canada
Some customers have asked about the FRT, please see letter from RCMP below:

Good day John:

With respect to your statement: - “If Wolverine Supplies was to manufacture a semi auto center fire rifle in Canada with a 19 inch barrel I assume we could simply go ahead and market her without your inspection as there is no legal requirement to have an FRT”.


1. For the purposes of the FRT, I would like to draw a clear distinction between the “manufacturer” who makes all components from “scratch” including the receiver and barrel and is not just an assembler of components with metal working, metal finishing and woodworking skills, which accurately describes the average “gunsmith”. The former is a “manufacturer”, the latter is not.

2. I presume that Wolverine (the business entity) in the hypothetical statement above, and their supply chain have all the required licences and authorities.

Then the answer is YES, BUT the manufacturer assumes full responsibility for assuring accurate classification of the firearm and accessories such as stocks and cartridge magazines.

Be aware that other regulators may require an FRT Record for their purposes.

Regards.

Bill Etter

F.A. William (Bill) Etter
Chief Firearms Technologist
Specialized Firearms Support Services
Firearms Investigative and Enforcement Services Directorate
RCMP-CFP
Specialized Policing Services
 
I asked about the FRT in your other thread yesterday.

My only question would be the legal definition of "market". My legal understanding is that market, when used as a verb means to advertise or promote, not to sell. In that case the letter you posted would mean you can advertise and promote a firearm with no FRT. It does not say anything about selling it.

noun
1.
a regular gathering of people for the purchase and sale of provisions, livestock, and other commodities.
"farmers going to market"
2.
an area or arena in which commercial dealings are conducted.
"the labor market"

verb
advertise or promote (something).
"the product was marketed under the name “aspirin.”"
 
SceptreStart said:
I asked about the FRT in your other thread yesterday.

My only question would be the legal definition of "market". My legal understanding is that market, when used as a verb means to advertise or promote, not to sell. In that case the letter you posted would mean you can advertise and promote a firearm with no FRT. It does not say anything about selling it.

noun
1.
a regular gathering of people for the purchase and sale of provisions, livestock, and other commodities.
"farmers going to market"
2.
an area or arena in which commercial dealings are conducted.
"the labor market"

verb
advertise or promote (something).
"the product was marketed under the name “aspirin.”"
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I think you need to look at the intent of the question and the fact that the FRT is not a legal requirement and has no legal standing. It is the opinion of Government employee's, nothing more.

Please feel free to reword the question and submit it yourself if you require additional clarification.
 
Mr Wolverine said:
I think you need to look at the intent of the question and the fact that the FRT is not a legal requirement and has no legal standing. It is the opinion of Government employee's, nothing more.

Please feel free to reword the question and submit it yourself if you require additional clarification.
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Quoting this.

I learned something today.
 
The FRT in general is one of those interesting things.

There's no requirement under the firearms act or criminal code that requires the RCMP in any capacity to determine the classification of firearms. The Criminal Code outlines what criteria must be met for restricted and prohibited firearms, with all others falling into the non-restricted category.

However, the RCMP have found it useful to have a resource table of firearms information, to help identify and classify firearms to aid them in their work. This in itself isn't a bad thing. Simple information such as this is a great thing to collect and use as a standardized reference.

As having done so, they've become the recognized "experts" in the field, so for instance, the Canadian Border Services Agency relies on their work to be able to determine the classifications of firearms being moved through the borders, rather than determining it in house with their own people. Their use of the FRT is in a Memorandum Memorandum D19-13-2, and while it states "will be used as a reference tool" it is in fact treated as the only source of information. Which is not bad in theory, but in reality means the RCMP are the ones who get to classify everything, without that being something that they're mandated to do.

So it's become necessary to have an FRT to import or export, not through regulations, but by how government agencies work.

As Canada is primarily an importer of firearms "waiting on an FRT" is seen as an absolute requirement of bringing something to market, particularly as few Canadian manufacturers wish to shoulder the burden of "manufacturer assumes full responsibility for assuring accurate classification".
 
I respect that you are exercising your rights as a domestic manufacturer to determine your own classification.

Here is to hoping more domestic manufacturers grow a pair.
 
Without an FRT what governs the formal identification of a firearm? To put it another way, what would stop me from just "changing the name" of a firearm from WS-MCR to anything I want? Is the name required to be permanently affixed to the receiver by the manufacturer like a serial number? Does the name of a firearm even matter?
 
QYV said:
Without an FRT what governs the formal identification of a firearm? To put it another way, what would stop me from just "changing the name" of a firearm from WS-MCR to anything I want? Is the name required to be permanently affixed to the receiver by the manufacturer like a serial number? Does the name of a firearm even matter?
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You raise some very good questions? I am not a Lawyer so I will decline from answering them, I am sure some others will offer their opinion.
Does an FRT formally ID a firearm? That is a very good question, by what authority? The FRT is only that, a Referance table! Not a legal document. I wish it was, then we would have enforceable standards, time lines, accountability and a formal appeal process.
As I remember things, and I must warn you my memory is not as good as it once was, it is a criminal offense to deface a serial number but I don't think there is any mention about changing a manufactures name. To correctly ID any firearm you need make, model and serial number.
. The make and manufacture may differ ie Make is Colt but Manufacture could be Remington or Ithaca, with a 1911A1 change the slide and you may have changed the manufacture but not the serial number. Could the FRT correctly ID such a gun? All I can say with certainty is this is a real can of worms, with a lot of incorrect advice offered.

If half the people here can not understand this, how do you expect our MP's to? Or even the average LE officer?
 
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QYV said:
Without an FRT what governs the formal identification of a firearm? To put it another way, what would stop me from just "changing the name" of a firearm from WS-MCR to anything I want? Is the name required to be permanently affixed to the receiver by the manufacturer like a serial number? Does the name of a firearm even matter?
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Only the serial number is protected by law.

The name only matters when the powers that be want to use it to mess with you, or it's listed in SOR/98-462.

You can classify it without a name, based on the criteria listed in the criminal code and by comparing distinguishing mechanical characteristics against those models listed in SOR/98-462.
 
Mr Wolverine said:
You raise some very good questions? I am not a Lawyer so I will decline from answering them, I am sure some others will offer their opinion.
Does an FRT formally ID a firearm? That is a very good question, by what authority? The FRT is only that, a Referance table! Not a legal document. I wish it was, then we would have enforceable standards, time lines, accountability and a formal appeal process.
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Yea, that is what I am wondering as well. FRT's do contain an identifying description of a firearm, defacto it can be used to identify firearms, but can it be considered to do so definitively?

Mr Wolverine said:
As I remember things, and I must warn you my memory is not as good as it once was, it is a criminal offense to deface a serial number but I don't think there is any mention about changing a manufactures name. To correctly ID any firearm you need make, model and serial number.
. The make and manufacture may differ ie Make is Colt but Manufacture could be Remington or Ithaca, with a 1911A1 change the slide and you may have changed the manufacture but not the serial number. Could the FRT correctly ID such a gun? All I can say with certainty is this is a real can of worms, with a lot of incorrect advice offered.
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Yes, exactly. If the identifying marks (outside of serial numbers, of course) are no longer visible on a firearm because of parts swaps or refinishing, is that firearm still the same as identified in the FRT? Is it even possible to identify a firearm "by name" legally?!

Mr Wolverine said:
If half the people here can not understand this, how do you expect our MP's to? Or even the average LE officer?
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This is the real concern.
 
arketh said:
Only the serial number is protected by law.

The name only matters when the powers that be want to use it to mess with you, or it's listed in SOR/98-462.

You can classify it without a name, based on the criteria listed in the criminal code and by comparing distinguishing mechanical characteristics against those models listed in SOR/98-462.
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Yea, and this is where you run into the "variant or modified version of it" language that makes the whole process of identifying a firearm frustratingly subjective.
 
Each pattern of firearm can be broken down to fundamental mechanical characteristics that make that pattern unique, and I'm sure somewhere in the bowels of the RCMP firearms lab there's a collection of documentation that lists those for each pattern of firearm that they've examined, and probably some form of pattern room as well.

The FRT is just the "for dummies" version of it, using the most clear features and probably in most cases it's more than enough for the situations that call for it.

Yes, "variant or modified version of it" is weasel words and can (and has) been misused. But it does have a purpose, to help clarify the intent of the law as to meaning that they are referring to a pattern of firearms, rather than a specific named model. Could it have been worded better? Certainly, but that would have required better understanding on the part of those making the regulations at that time. Be glad that they didn't phrase it "or similar design" where one could stretch that to cover almost anything with a shared feature.
 
QYV said:
Without an FRT what governs the formal identification of a firearm? To put it another way, what would stop me from just "changing the name" of a firearm from WS-MCR to anything I want? Is the name required to be permanently affixed to the receiver by the manufacturer like a serial number? Does the name of a firearm even matter?
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The Firearms Act decides how a firearm is classified, not the FRT table. If tomorrow morning, someone in charge of the FRT decided to classify the 10-22 rifle as a restricted firearm in the table, it would still be NR. Same if the AR or some pistol was somehow described as NR in the FRT, it would still be restricted. It might be a mess, but the law is the law, and the FRT is not the law, it is a reference table (that's what RT stands for). The name of a firearm is merely a convenient way to describe it when exchanging with other people, it has no bearing whatsoever on its classification. So you can call your SKS a corolla and call your 1911 a Porsche 911 if you want, and nobody will care (it might get confusing though), but more importantly, your SKS will still be a NR firearm and your 1911 will still be a restricted firearm.

Your responsibility as a firearm owner is not to know how your firearm is classified in the FRT. Actually, simple honest firearm owners don't have access to the FRT, so asking them to know the entry of any firearm is impossible. Your responsibility is to know which of your firearm is NR, R or P based on the firearms act, and follow the law regarding those specific firearms.

Keep in mind this is all a matter of law, not a matter of firearms. In this case I believe Bill Etter is right, but his opinion on the subject bears as much weight as that of any unknown netizen. He is a "Firearms Technologist" giving a legal opinion. This is worth as much as your doctor's legal opinion or your lawyer's medical opinion. Your best bet is to read the firearms act and the criminal code, from beginning to end. You will then be leaps ahead of 99% of MPs, MLAs and LEO on the subject.
 
VinnyQC said:
The Firearms Act decides how a firearm is classified
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Actually it's the criminal code that defines how a firearm is classified, Section 84 (1) in conjunction with regulations prescribing the classifications of certain firearms, notably SOR/98-462 and SOR/98-464.

The FRT ends up bearing weight in the end because organisations like the CBSA use it, and the RCMP will use the information it to recommend charges, which means that the courts in the end recognise it as a valid resource, and that the RCMP know what they're doing when they make entries.
 
Not to worry, soon they will all be classified as military style assault rifles for ease of Just. & B.B. getting their small minds to wrap around it and they won’t have to change any wording in their pre written speeches or infomercials to tell the sheep how scary they are and must be surrendered! For fair compensation of course! Unless they will grandfather them to the safe for the rest of your life?
 
It will be interesting to see what does happen with the firearms prohibitions, etc. Methinks Brother Justin and Billy Club Blair likely have a few other things on their plates, like lawless hooligans shutting down the entire transportation network of this country, Coronavirus, etc. Perhaps gun control will for now be seen as an issue they just had better leave alone.

Ed
 
boltaction said:
It will be interesting to see what does happen with the firearms prohibitions, etc. Methinks Brother Justin and Billy Club Blair likely have a few other things on their plates, like lawless hooligans shutting down the entire transportation network of this country, Coronavirus, etc. Perhaps gun control will for now be seen as an issue they just had better leave alone.

Ed
Click to expand...

They already said those prohibitions will come after the spring budget.
 
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