WSSM's.. Debunking the Myths

i have never doubted any of the wsm or the wssm i think they will work just fine but they are also not that common and i havent seen ammo for em eather.
talk to ya all later
Riley
 
To each their own:)

But in all honesty the only one I see a real reason for is the 300wsm, those of us that tried a 300wm in medium actions know what a pain they are to have to shove any l-o-n-g pointed bullet bullet right down into the case:rolleyes: . You could remidy that if the venerable 308 Norma was still available but then you'd still be dealing with belts! Give me a Sako 300wsm:) but all the rest are just dif flavours of the same ice cream:cool:
 
I have seen a few WSM's and a few SAUM's in this area, but the WSSM's are NOT selling here. Why, I cannot say, but I think part of it is bad publicity, whether factual or not. However, In speaking to my Gunsmith, he says that he has seen several of these rifles due to feeding difficulties, but added that it was not a large number. I am not about to rush out and buy any of them, since I have the bases well covered with conventional chamberings. But for those who want them, I say, Fly at it!! FWIW, I had the opportunity to play quite a bit witha 7mm SAUM, and I was favorably impressed with the ease of developing good loads in it. But it certainly does nothing that my 7mm Rem Mag doesn't already do. Regards, Eagleye.
 
I know of exactly 1 WSSM in town... and it still resides at the local sports shop!

I predict extinction of the WSSM's within the next few years.

The WSM's are selling hot and heavy around here still, but a strong virtue of the WSM's is that they are available in nearly every make and model of rifle. The WSSM's less so....

Time will tell, but I certainly am not rushing out to buy one, and will not be buying in shares in Brownchester anytime soon with expectations of a market surge as millions rush out to buy them.

Stock up on brass now.... they'll disappear.... I can almost guarantee it.

280_ACKLEY
 
Ardent said:
I own two WSM's and have a 7mm WSSM reamer on the way, they rock!
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Oh, and I've got a 7mm SAUM in a Sendero... Seems to be a trend in my recent cartridge choices... But a big thumbs up for the concept from here! I like it, less recoil, same velocity, less powder, blast... What's not to like? Yes, the golden oldies have their place, especially with heavy (like 200gr+ in .30) bullets and they will be around forever. Will the stubby's be here as long? Many won't, some might, but they are great cartridges for sure.
 
280_ACKLEY said:
I know of exactly 1 WSSM in town... and it still resides at the local sports shop!

I predict extinction of the WSSM's within the next few years.

The WSM's are selling hot and heavy around here still, but a strong virtue of the WSM's is that they are available in nearly every make and model of rifle. The WSSM's less so....

Time will tell, but I certainly am not rushing out to buy one, and will not be buying in shares in Brownchester anytime soon with expectations of a market surge as millions rush out to buy them.

Stock up on brass now.... they'll disappear.... I can almost guarantee it.

280_ACKLEY
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Seems to me you predicted the same thing for the WSM's... here are a few of the better writers opinions... just for fun.:)

“Just about the time I’m ready to cry ‘uncle’ from playing with the new cartridges that may or may not have a future, something comes along that I really like(.25 WSSM).
The .25-06 is one of the best cartridges around for pronghorn and medium-size deer, especially in open country…If the .25-06 has a drawback, it’s that it requires a .30-06-length action. But the .25 WSSM will launch a heavy-for-caliber 115- or 120-grain bullet at one side or the other of 3,000 fps-from a cartridge that is almost a full inch shorter that the .25-06. This means that you can step down two full action sizes-from standard to short then to super-short length.

If you’re looking for a really sweet, light-kicking rifle with some reach, the .25 WSSM is ideal…the .25 WSSM takes a rightful place as a superb choice for small- to medium-sized big game like pronghorn, sheep and deer. It gets my vote as the best of the .25s.”

Craig Boddington, A Shorter Quarter-Bore, October 2004 Guns & Ammo



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"Given that the .25 WSSM case has 11 percent less displacement than the .25-06, it nevertheless achieves the exact same velocities, and according to Winchester, it does it with 14 percent less powder. Those facts alone should dispel any doubts as to the greater efficiency claimed for this new generation of cartridges characterized by short, fat powder columns."
Jon R Sundra, .25 WSSM Winchester's Latest Super Short. May/June 2004 Rifle Shooter



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"The Winchester .223 Super Short Magnum increases the velocity of a 55-grain bullet a good 250 fps over the .22-250. I’ve seen this squat magnum used on ground squirrels, prairie dogs, badgers, coyotes and feral hogs. Pretty much all a shooter has to do is aim dead on out to 350 yards. A Winchester Model 70 Classic Featherweight in .223 WSSM weighs six pounds. That’s a pound lighter than the same rifle chambered in .22-250."
John Haviland, Walking Varmint Rifles, June 2004 Shooting Illustrated



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"the rank-and-file consumers-the average men and women…want to hunt with a rifle that is user-friendly, pleasant to shoot and easy to carry. This, I believe, is what will ultimately decide the fate of the WSSM cartridges in a crowded marketplace. They will succeed not because of any ballistic advantages but rather because of the user-friendly rifles in which they are chambered."
Dan C Johnson, Winchester's .25 WSSM, May 2004 Guns and Ammo



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"Probably the most valuable quality of the new short magnums is that they permit a shooter who is accustomed to a .243 Win….to step up to true magnum level performance without a noticeable increase in recoil and with a rifle that is lighter, handier and inherently more accurate. And that's saying a lot."
Holt Bodinson, A Season with the Shorts, September 2003, Guns



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"With the marriage of the short, handy rifles Winchester and Browning are offering it (243 WSSM) will make a great hunting gun for anything from ground squirrels to whitetails. I know of at least a couple of sheep hunters who are planning to use it in Alaska this fall."
Bryce M. Towsley, All the Rage This Year -- The Stubby Look from Winchester, June 2003 Shooting Illustrated.



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"So what's the point?
There are several. First, the .223 WSSM 64-grain PowerPoint offers more downrange energy for large predators and medium game than any other .22 centerfire out there. And the 55-grain Ballistic Silvertip .243 WSSM will be the fastest, flattest, .243/6mm-caliber long-range coyote load you can buy-by far. Plus there are the basic advantages inherent to the Short Magnum concept-moderate recoil due to the use of increased efficiency propellants and improved accuracy due to the uniform load density and consistent burn of a short, fat powder column. These two new cartridges resemble nothings so much as the benchrest world's championship-proven jug-shaped .22 PPC and 6mm PPC loads - on steroids. Moreover, to accommodate these new cartridges, Browning and WSRAC/Winchester firearms companies are introducing an entirely new super short action size in the Browning A-Bolt and Winchester Model 70 lines, which will approximately a half-inch shorter than conventional short-action receivers (similar, in fact, to the length of a custom PPC-type benchrest rifle). The intrinsic accuracy benefits of a short, stiffer action over a long action are well-established principles of rifle design. The new actions will also eliminate any problems that might occur using such extra-short cartridges in a standard-length short action (similar to the problems that occur whenever anyone tries to adapt a standard long-action gun for a conventional short-action cartridge). The resulting guns will be smaller, lighter, more compact, and quicker handling, with essentially nondiscernible recoil effect - i.e., you'll still be looking at the target through the scope when the bullet gets there.
For high-performance centerfire rifle enthusiasts, this is exciting stuff."

#### Metcalf, Technical Editor, "Winchester's New .223 Super Short Magnum", March 2003 Shooting Times



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"this was my first time shooting at long range with the new .223 Winchester Super Short Magnum cartridge…The load was obviously agreeable to this rifle's feeding preferences, and as we packed the truck to go, it occurred to me it was probably a bad day to be a prairie dog.
I started shooting at some 'dogs that were across a small, wet swale. It was a long way, but that's what I like when shooting prairie dogs. I would rather hit a few at very long range than a truckload up close. After several shots my spotter stopped snickering at me and ran to the pickup for the laser range finder. "I can't believe you hit that 'dog," he said when he returned. "I can get a reading off that big rock in front of him and it's over 800 yards. My guess is that 'dog was about 825 yards away!"
Before the two day shoot was over I took three more at more than 800 and one past 900 yards. All were measured with the credible witnesses. I know I am braggin a little here - although I think I earned it - but I also want to brag on this cartridge. As I write this, I have used the .223 WSSM to shoot prairie dogs, coyotes, javelina, whitetail deer and even a nilgai. I have also burned several hundred rounds at the range, and I think I am starting to get a feel for what the .223 WSSM is all about."
"I am now convinced this is an accurate cartridge, first because of that prairie dog shoot a few weeks ago and later when I took a light-barreled Browning A-Bolt to my range and shot some handloads. Other than cleaning the barrel before I started I did nothing with this rifle to make it shoot…The average for all three loads measured .9 inch for five-shot, 100 yard groups…so far the .223 WSSM is looking like a handloader's dream cartridge - and a prairie dog's worst nightmare."
Bryce M. Towsley, Stuffing Super Stumpy, October 2003 Shooting Illustrated.



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“I’m really impressed by the .25 WSSM. It offers big power in a small, handy package. If you already own a good .25-06 rifle, there’s probably not much reason to run out and replace it with a .25 WSSM (unless you want something a lot lighter to carry, and more accurate, with less recoil). But if you’ve been meaning to someday have a .25-06, and haven’t got one yet, I can’t think of a single reason not to purchase a .25 WSSM instead.”
#### Metcalf, Tech Corner column titled, “Hot Stuff New trends from the centerfire world”, September 2004 Peterson’s Hunting
 
Seems to me you predicted the same thing for the WSM's... here are a few of the better writers opinions... just for fun.
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Don't recall predicting that on the WSM's.... might have though...long time ago.

REDD, don't forget who pays the bills for those gunwriters, and who sends them on sponsored shoots......

Of course they like them, it gives them something to write about.

The proof to me will be the next few years, and how many factory offerings there are (ammo and rifles).

I ain't holding my breath.

I'm not saying they don't work... just that they aren't selling well in my neck of the woods.... and am betting the same is happening elsewhere as well.

Time will tell....

280_ACKLEY
 
Yeah I have no illusions about the loyalties of the writers and who pays their bills either. But we have all been reading these guys for years and the better writers do not go out on limbs... if they have anything bad to say... they say nothing at all. But if the products are good they will sing the praises at the top of thier voices.
The WSSM's are definitely off to a slow start and Browning/Winchester is releasing them in more and better suited rifle models now. The demand for the smaller calibers has never been as strong as it is right now.
The WSM's were not all that well recieved in the beginning either and they had the added competition of the RSAUM's to deal with as well.
But they are the success story of the decade in the industry right now.
I predict that we will see many more innovations as the Manufacturers step up thier research and developement and marketing to get a bigger piece of the pie.
This is all good for us as shooters, hunters and consumers... not bad at all.:)
 
I love the Sundra quote. He should know better then to manipulate case capacities and effeciencies. As I have said before, ain't so.

When most compare the new short mags with the old ones, they forget one very simple thing, powder technology has changed. The same change that allowed the 308 to equal the 30-06.

Sundra loves the 7mm so I am sure his comments compare the 7RM and the 7WSM (the 30's will have the same thing). The 7RM has 'standard' performance based on SAAMI pressures using 50's and 60's generation of powders.

The loads stuff something as archaine as IMR4831 into the 7RM and new gen magpro or similar into the WSM. At the same 'low' velocities for a given bullet, of course the short fat looks good. There is a complete mismatch of the older larger case.

IMR 4831 is a big coarse powder with a 'fast' burn rate for this cartridge especially when using 160gr or heavier bullets. Very low load density (big grains) so you need a big case to house enough powder for good work. Not ideal. Case capacity is not utilised properly for the given pressures and performance.

So the short fats come along and take advantage of the new gen of powders. They can use a much smaller case, run them at similar pressures, higher load densities and they seem very effecient - when compared to the 'reduced' performance of the larger case.

Use something new like RE25 in the 7RM and performance exceeds 'standard' easily. Use a different powder, like varget or H4350, and you can get the same velocity using LESS powder then the WSM's.

Going the other way, I have seen lots of load data using slow ball powders like H870 which show STW performance from a 7RM case. All of a sudden, the case capacities and performance fall in line.

The WSM's can't match the larger standard action magnums IF the larger case is loaded using modern components. Just flip through any new load manual like Nosler or Lee or Accurate arms (interested in Western Powders stuff but not easy to get in Canada).

Also, compare the actual amounts of powder used in the WSM's. For maximum density which usually is good for low ES and increased accuracy, the amounts of powder isn't that far off the larger cases when they are loaded with low density 'old' style components.

Case capacity is the ultimate indicator of performance. We just need to match the components to the case and task.

See my post on the 7 Mystic where I get even better effeciencies then the WSM's in a LONG SKINNY case.

Jerry
 
Anybody can manipulate numbers and speculate about efficiency....
the bottom line is the short fat case and efficiency have been proven over and over... the .284, .308, 6BR, 6ppc, the Lazzeroni's even the Ackley Improved stuff is all a by-product of this knowledge.
What you leave out of the equation is shorter stiffer actions and shorter barrels to achieve the same result..... now that is efficiency.:p
 
What about the 300 H&H? One of the most efficient 30 cal mags out there, and neither short not fat..and any I have owned have also been wonderfully accurate.;) :D Eagleye.
 
Eagleye said:
What about the 300 H&H? One of the most efficient 30 cal mags out there, and neither short not fat..and any I have owned have also been wonderfully accurate.;) :D Eagleye.
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Geezuz... don't muddy the waters with common sense Eagleye... were havin a debate here...:D
 
Actually, not manipulating numbers but matching components to case capacity.

We have way more cases then we have powders. Some cases/cals/bullet weights just don't fit available powders so you have too much or too little case volume to meet the performance goals.

Then you have way different pressure curves in new gen powders. Look at how Varget has really taken the 308 to new heights in performance. Same applies to the 6PPC and 6BR when the Viht powders were the hot combo. Also, see how Viht powders have boosted popular HG ammo alot.

All I am saying is that if you can compare different cases using the same parameters and optimised powders (not always possible), you get a pretty linear relationship between volume and performance. That is NOT what the marketers are saying. They promote the 'free lunch' which the short fats most certainly are not.

I agree that the shorter cartridges are a great bonus for the hunter by reducing the overal length and possibly weight of the rifle. I am all for that as I dislike packing long heavy rifles when walking about. This with no loss in performance IS a great thing.

The only downside is mag capacity. Does having an extra rd more or less matter?

Then there is the often mentioned feeding issue which is more a QC issue then a design problem. I would just get a center feed action and be done with it.

If they come out with a 6.5 or 7 WSSM AND it becomes popular enough to have factory ammo in most stores (I like having a supply of ammo in case my handloads get lost or damaged or just shot up), I will most certainly pick one up. I avoid hunting with wildcats just in case.

A super short action with a 22" barrel being as long as a long action with a 19.5" barrel sounds like a great rig to me. Almost as good as having a single shot action.

I hope they survive.

Jerry
 
Personally, I find no problem with the Short Mags. They have definitely put some "zest" into the firearms marketing business. Also supply endless grist for the rumor mills. :D ;) ;) The fact that they only allow three total in a rifle is a non-issue to me, since I have not carried more than three rounds in my rifles for 20 years or more [haven't needed more, either!] The shorter barrel capability is a nice feature, cause any barrel longer than 24" tends to become awkward to carry, and a Short mag with a 24" tube is equivalent to a 25-25½" tube in a long chambering. Short/Long action...not a bother to me, one way or other, but short actions make that rifle just a bit shorter overall, which is nice. Feed problems...as Jerry stated so eloquently, more a matter of individual rifles than a design flaw. I harbor no resentment toward the short mags, perhaps some will cling to life. Since variety is the spice of life, let's hope they do. Regards, Eagleye.
 
I would only consider one of the WSM myself that has a advantage over the tried true 270 w and it would be the 270 WSM and this one only.

the 325 well i would rather have a 338
the 300 wsm I will stick with the old 300 wm
7mm wsm I will take my 7 Ultras at 3650 fps and my 7mm rem at 3150 with 160s?
the 25 wssm well i could be talked into, how ever I like 6,5s over 25s
the smaller stuff well you can have them I like my 22-250 and and 6mm as well!
Of course this is all a personal claim to fame!LOL others view it different and some the same

AND, Not that there is any thing wrong with the WSM family I guess I am still old school and have so many die sets for the old timers, and brass, and have used them my whole life, I just can't tell myself why I need one it offers nothing different than what I got! besides a new toy :)
 
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