WW2 bomber crew sidearms

djankle

djankle

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My grandfather was a navigator in a Lancaster bomber during World War 2. I asked him a lot of questions about his service but I wasn't interested in firearms at the time and didn't get to ask him if he carried a sidearm during missions. He was in the RAF. I'm guessing he would have carried an Enfield revolver if anything. My gut tells me these guys would have at least had a pistol for protection in case they had to bail out, which he did. Any thoughts?
 
I haven't really done much research yet but I haven't been able to find any definative answer with a few quick google searches. On one site a guy says all aircrew carried them, then one says something different, and so on. I guess It may be good to focus on pre flight pictures and things like that to see of they have holsters on. Stay tuned.
 
Thanks I just might do that. My dad just flew in that Lancaster back in March. I went and watched. What a beast of a plane! Someday when I have some extra cash I'm going to take a ride in her.
 
It was a thrill to see and hear the Lancaster and the Mosquito flying together at the Hamilton Air Show.
 
I don't THINK that any RCAF air crew carried any type of side arm.
I knew many returned air crew, including a long time friend I mentioned earlier. We have been on many remote camping trips together and told a lot of stories around camp fires, but he never mentioned having a hand gun.
Not one single returning air crew member I knew, or talked to, mentioned guns.
What would be the point of having a gun? If it was for protection on bailing out, it would just get them killed, instead of captured.
 
RedRabbits said:
I'd like to see this guy bail out of a stricken aircraft and take on a German patrol armed with just a .38, that is even if the pistol made it out with you.
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Had an uncle who was in Germany as a POW during WWII, and he would agree that sometimes it's better to die trying.
 
For one thing, remember that each Armed Service looked after prisoners from its opposite number. Thus, RCAF, RAF, USAAF, RAAF, RRAF, RSAAF, RIAF, RNZAF men serving in Europe and captured would have been turned over to the Luftwaffe for interrogation, processing, transportation, housing, Red Cross registration and so forth. Naval prisoners would have been turned over to the Kriegsmarine, Army prisoners to the Heer. Each Service maintained its own system of Assembly Camps, Transit Camps (Durchlager) and Branch Camps (Stammlager or"Stalag").

Jerry had only the one fair-sized Naval camp, attempted to downsize the Army camps after June, 1940..... but the Luftwaffe camps just grew and grew. Yes, prisoners WERE released from time to time: even the Danish Royal Bodyguard troops, who fought very hard and were NOT in Hitler's "good book" were released in 1942 and 1943, by which time many French troops were long gone. In special cases, prisoners might be returned to their own belligerant country while the war still was going on, generally using neutral Portugal as the transit country, Switzerland being landlocked.

It was all very organised and not much at all like in the movies. "The Great Escape" is quite true to the actual conditions in a Stalag: the man who wrote the original book, who had ample opportunity to talk with people who were there, was an advisor on making the film.

Thing is, this system operated on BOTH SIDES, with prisoners segregated by Service on our side, in entirely separate camp structures on Jerry's side.

If a man were captured with a side-arm, it would be the first (and most ticklish) thing he lost. MUCH better to guard your scarves (with maps printed into them), your bootlaces (pliable hacksaws), your uniform buttons (especially the on holding the compass) and ll the rst of the "escape gear" with which so many were outfitted.

That said, I DID once own an Enfield revolver, a very nice Numbr 2 Mark 1 built in 1931...... with "R.A.F." very professionally engraved into the frame.

So they do exist. How much USE was made of them is another matter. Only man I ever knew who actually fought his way out of capture used a rock and his bare hands, came home (through Spain and Portugal) with a P-38 which Fritz didn't need any longer. He was a B-25 pilot of some considerable note, the FIRST pilot to bale out of a crippled Mitchell and live to tell about it. (Getting out of a Mitchell was regarded as impossible for the Pilot, but he worked it out, had a tiny Sterling silver B-25 lapel pin to prove it..... given to him by North American Aircraft. The Air Force gave him 2 weeks' leave and a brand-new Mitchell, told him to go do it again.)
 
I recall reading a newspaper article about an RCAF crewmember.
Somewhere in the article was a brief mention about sidearms, and how this guy was supposed to carry his as part of his issued kit, but refused to carry a gun due to personal beliefs.
Thats the part that I found bizarre.
He was OK with dropping explosives on cities full of civilians, but became some sort of "conscientious objector" regarding a sidearm.
 
smellie said:
It was all very organised and not much at all like in the movies. "The Great Escape" is quite true to the actual conditions in a Stalag: the man who wrote the original book, who had ample opportunity to talk with people who were there, was an advisor on making the film.
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A bit of trivia concerning Donald Pleasence who played Flight Lieutenant Colin Blythe.

He was initially a conscientous objector during World War II, but later changed his mind and joined the British Royal Air Force. His plane was shot down and was taken prisoner of war by the Nazis until his release in 1945.

He was a wireless operator in Lancaster bombers in 166 Squadron, Royal Air Force.

He was flying in a Lancaster NE112 "AS-M" when it was shot down on September 9, 1944.

Was held at Stalag Luft I, near the Baltic Sea. While a POW during World War II, he organized a theatre company in order to pass the time.

One of the stars of The Great Escape (1963) to have actually been a World War II prisoner of war (Hannes Messemer, who played Colonel Lugo the camp commander, was a German soldier in World War II and was captured by American troops and held in a POW camp until the end of the war). He was also a POW in Russia. When he kindly offered advice to director John Sturges, he was politely asked to keep his "opinions" to himself. Later, when another star from the film informed Sturges that Pleasence had actually been an RAF officer in a World War II German POW camp, Sturges requested Pleasance's technical advice and input on historical accuracy from that point forward.
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Flight Lieutenant Wally Floody OBE, was the official technical adviser on The Great Escape.

He was one of the architects and main tunnelers of the actual escape attempt from Stalag Luft III POW camp.

He was also one of the prisoners that were transferred to other camps before the night of the escape.

I imagine it must have been difficult for those men to be on a film set that mirrored a time and place in their life that was probably very unpleasant.
 
Unfortunately, I can't ask the two RCAF men I knew that flew in a Halifax as a Navigator, and a Lancaster as a Wireless Operator/Top Gunner, if they carried sidearms.

They are gone now, may they Rest in Peace.

I have read several accounts of British and American fighter pilots carrying sidearms, but I can't recollect ever reading about any bomber crews that carried them.

These forums suggest that some did though:

http://forum.armyairforces.com/Sidearms-of-WWII-Aircrews-Need-info-m127825.aspx

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=6919
 
I met at work a RCAF fighter pilot who told me he didn't like the revolver issued to him, so he traded his .38S&W, $20 and a carton of cigarettes to an American flyer for his 1911. This Canadian, was shot down over Normandy while flying a Typhoon and hid the 1911 in a stone wall in a field where his plane crashed. With the help of the resistance, made his way back to Allied lines to fly again. When the allies advanced past the crash sight, he returned to collect his .45 pistol. I took him home from hospital with my Ambulance, very ill, but he insisted to show me the pistol he spoke of. It was well used, with a little pitting that he said came from it's time unattended in Normandy. The shoulder holster was still marked with the original American owners name. RIP Keith.
 
"...don't THINK that any RCAF air crew..." Never seen nor read anything about RCAF or RAF bomber crews or fighter pilots being armed either.
"...returning air crew member I knew, or talked to..." Ditto.
 
i spoke to a canadian p-51 pilot once, who carried a pistol during the war, no mention of what it was.
also talked to a navigator who said they had one, with a mind of keeping the locals from killing you before you could surrender to the military if you bailed out, again, no mention of what
 
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