WWII U.S. Winchester M97 Trench Gun.
- Thread starter drm3m
- Start date
CCone,
M97 Trench takedown shotguns were not purchased by the Ordnance Department until 1941.
Ref-Page 16 in Joe Poyer's book U.S. Winchester Trench and Riot Guns.
The non-takedown U.S. military marked M97s were WWI vintage.
They also had different markings than the WWII guns.
David
We don't often see photos of M97s in films.
The photos below are from the film Windtalkers.
The Battle of Saipan 1943.
That is where this M97s were used.
Period photo showing a M97.
M97 Trench takedown shotguns were not purchased by the Ordnance Department until 1941.
Ref-Page 16 in Joe Poyer's book U.S. Winchester Trench and Riot Guns.
The non-takedown U.S. military marked M97s were WWI vintage.
They also had different markings than the WWII guns.
David
We don't often see photos of M97s in films.
The photos below are from the film Windtalkers.
The Battle of Saipan 1943.
That is where this M97s were used.
Period photo showing a M97.
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For they that may be interested.....the differences in WWI and WWII M97 Trench Guns.
(According to Joe Poyer WWI trench gun serial numbers are 614,000-750,000.)
(Serial number range for trench guns and riot guns in WWII 916,513-955,402.)
Total production of WWI trench and riot guns 19,196.
Total production of WWII trench guns-25,020....riot guns 5,371.
I don't own one so this info comes from a very helpful and knowledgeable collector in the U.S.
The photo below is the U.S. marking on one of his WWI M97s.
Some of the other differences between the WW1 and WW2 97 trench guns are:
1. WWI guns have the high comb buttstock which are also thinner at the wrist. The WW2 guns have a fluted comb buttstock and are thicker at the wrist.
2. The early WW2 guns have the same 6x29 hole heat shields as the WW1 guns, but the later WW2 guns have the 4x29 hole heat shield.
3. The bayonet adaptor on WW1 guns is marked either “Pat Appl For” or “Pat Jan 18 & Mar 19 1918.” The bayo adaptors on WW2 guns are unmarked.
4. The bayonet adaptors on the WW1 vs. WW2 guns fit the barrel slightly different. The bayonet adaptor lug on the WW1 guns fits about even with the muzzle end of the barrel while on the WW2 guns the lug is slightly behind the muzzle end of the barrel.
5. The top rear of the barrel on a WW2 gun is marked with the Ordnance flaming bomb. The barrels on WW1 guns do not have the Ordnance bomb mark on them.
6. The magazine tube on WW1 trench guns only have two holes drilled at the forward end for the mag plug screws. On WW2 guns there are two additional holes drilled for the takedown lever (which, of course, is not used on WWI trench guns).
7. The slide action bar on WW1 guns is marked “Model 1897” over “-Winchester-“ over “Trademark Reg US Pat Office”. They are unmarked on WW2 guns.
8. Buttstocks on WWI guns are not martially marked. On early WW2 guns the stocks are marked with the WB cartouche and the Ordnance crossed cannons. The later WW2 guns have buttstocks marked with the GHD cartouche and the Ordnance crossed cannons.
There are some other subtle differences, but the above are most of the major ones.
Thank you Steve.
David
A link to an article about the use of U.S. trench guns during the Great War.
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Shotguns/Trench Guns In The Great War.html
(According to Joe Poyer WWI trench gun serial numbers are 614,000-750,000.)
(Serial number range for trench guns and riot guns in WWII 916,513-955,402.)
Total production of WWI trench and riot guns 19,196.
Total production of WWII trench guns-25,020....riot guns 5,371.
I don't own one so this info comes from a very helpful and knowledgeable collector in the U.S.
The photo below is the U.S. marking on one of his WWI M97s.
Some of the other differences between the WW1 and WW2 97 trench guns are:
1. WWI guns have the high comb buttstock which are also thinner at the wrist. The WW2 guns have a fluted comb buttstock and are thicker at the wrist.
2. The early WW2 guns have the same 6x29 hole heat shields as the WW1 guns, but the later WW2 guns have the 4x29 hole heat shield.
3. The bayonet adaptor on WW1 guns is marked either “Pat Appl For” or “Pat Jan 18 & Mar 19 1918.” The bayo adaptors on WW2 guns are unmarked.
4. The bayonet adaptors on the WW1 vs. WW2 guns fit the barrel slightly different. The bayonet adaptor lug on the WW1 guns fits about even with the muzzle end of the barrel while on the WW2 guns the lug is slightly behind the muzzle end of the barrel.
5. The top rear of the barrel on a WW2 gun is marked with the Ordnance flaming bomb. The barrels on WW1 guns do not have the Ordnance bomb mark on them.
6. The magazine tube on WW1 trench guns only have two holes drilled at the forward end for the mag plug screws. On WW2 guns there are two additional holes drilled for the takedown lever (which, of course, is not used on WWI trench guns).
7. The slide action bar on WW1 guns is marked “Model 1897” over “-Winchester-“ over “Trademark Reg US Pat Office”. They are unmarked on WW2 guns.
8. Buttstocks on WWI guns are not martially marked. On early WW2 guns the stocks are marked with the WB cartouche and the Ordnance crossed cannons. The later WW2 guns have buttstocks marked with the GHD cartouche and the Ordnance crossed cannons.
There are some other subtle differences, but the above are most of the major ones.
Thank you Steve.
David
A link to an article about the use of U.S. trench guns during the Great War.
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Shotguns/Trench Guns In The Great War.html
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Bullitt, with Steve McQueen, featured a hitman using a takedown 1897.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkGs_CJlK9g&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JelVHMUDjo&NR=1&feature=endscreen Minute 5 of the famous car chase.
This thread has been about WWII M97 Trench Guns.
I don't own a WWII or WWI Winchester M97 Riot Gun.
I found two examples of WWII riot guns that had been sold through Rock Island Auctions.
Both guns were arsenal refurbished and each one had some issues.
This was reflected in the values realized;
$1,610 and $1,150.
I wonder what an original untouched WWII M97 riot gun would be worth?
Not easy to find.
(Forget about WWI riot guns....apparently 'rather' rare.)
David
------------------------------------------------
Comments from Steve regarding the riot guns.
"None of the WW1 riot guns have hand stamped marks like some of the WW1 trench guns. But there is a small batch of WW1 riot guns that have a small roll stamped "U.S." mark on the left rear side of the receiver and small Ord bomb on the barrel and next to the serial number on the receiver. Other than those, all riot guns found in the serial number range of the WW1 Model 1897 shotguns have no martial markings. Are they Military shotguns? Hard to say for certain. But they may be because Winchester was pretty much making only Military firearms during WW1.
The WW2 riot guns usually fall into the lower serial number range for WW2 Model 97 shotguns. They are marked like the early WW2 trench guns (i.e., U.S. only on the left side of the receiver, Ord bomb on top of barrel, and WB cartouche with Ord. crossed cannons). But I've seen a couple marked like the later WW2 trench guns.
It seems like the trench guns are more common than the riot guns. The US marked WW1 riot guns are kind of rare. I've never seen one in person. "
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As a point of interest this early WWII M97 trench gun sold at Rock Island Auctions for $8,625 USD
including buyer's premium and fees.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3186
Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun manufactured in 1942. This take-down M1897 Trench Gun has the scarce and very desirable early WWII production features that include: (1) WWI style, six-hole hand guard/bayonet mount, (2) early pattern markings with "U.S." only on the left side of the receiver and (3) early Ordnance final inspection mark consisting of "W.B." in a rectangle above the small Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock. A small Ordnance 'Shell and Flame' inspection mark is stamped on the top of the barrel just ahead of the receiver. The shotgun has the Winchester commercial blue finish on the hand guard, barrel, magazine and receiver. The walnut stock and forearm have a dull varnish finish. The stock is fitted with a black, checkered, hard rubber, buttplate embossed with the round Winchester trademark and a sling swivel. The hand guard is fitted with the correct wire sling swivel above the bayonet lug. The underside of the barrel is stamped with the "42" (1942) production date. The left side of the barrel is stamped with the two-line legend: "MODEL-97-WINCHESTER-12 GA./-TRADE MARK-". "23/4 CHAMB./CYL." is stamped on the left side of the barrel between the Winchester legend and the receiver. The oval "WP" monogram/proof mark is stamped on the top of the barrel and the receiver. The serial number: "937039" is stamped on the underside of the barrel and "E/937039" is stamped on the underside of the receiver. The hand guard/bayonet lug is, correctly, not marked. Most WWII production Winchester M1897 Trench Guns were fitted with the later production, four-hole, hand guard/bayonet lug. These Trench Guns had the later style markings which consisted of "US" and the Ordnance "Shell and Flame' insignia on the left side of the receiver and "G.H.D" final inspection above the larger Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock. Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns, like this one, with the early hand guard and markings are scarce and very desirable.
BBL: 20 Inch
Stock: walnut
Gauge: 12
Finish: blue
Grips:
Serial Number: 937039
Condition: Excellent. The Trench Gun retains 95% of the original blue finish. Wear is limited to light scratches and storage marks on the sides of the receiver and some minor cycling marks on the magazine tube. The stock is highly figured walnut and is in excellent condition. The Ordnance inspection marks are crisp. Wear is limited to a minor scratch on the left side of the pistol grip. The forearm is in excellent condition. Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns saw extensive use in the Pacific Theater during WWII and remained in service until well after the Vietnam Conflict. As a result, examples of M1897 Trench Guns in original condition are scarce; early production M1897 Trench Guns like this example are very difficult to find with any amount of original finish.
I don't own a WWII or WWI Winchester M97 Riot Gun.
I found two examples of WWII riot guns that had been sold through Rock Island Auctions.
Both guns were arsenal refurbished and each one had some issues.
This was reflected in the values realized;
$1,610 and $1,150.
I wonder what an original untouched WWII M97 riot gun would be worth?
Not easy to find.
(Forget about WWI riot guns....apparently 'rather' rare.)
David
------------------------------------------------
Comments from Steve regarding the riot guns.
"None of the WW1 riot guns have hand stamped marks like some of the WW1 trench guns. But there is a small batch of WW1 riot guns that have a small roll stamped "U.S." mark on the left rear side of the receiver and small Ord bomb on the barrel and next to the serial number on the receiver. Other than those, all riot guns found in the serial number range of the WW1 Model 1897 shotguns have no martial markings. Are they Military shotguns? Hard to say for certain. But they may be because Winchester was pretty much making only Military firearms during WW1.
The WW2 riot guns usually fall into the lower serial number range for WW2 Model 97 shotguns. They are marked like the early WW2 trench guns (i.e., U.S. only on the left side of the receiver, Ord bomb on top of barrel, and WB cartouche with Ord. crossed cannons). But I've seen a couple marked like the later WW2 trench guns.
It seems like the trench guns are more common than the riot guns. The US marked WW1 riot guns are kind of rare. I've never seen one in person. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As a point of interest this early WWII M97 trench gun sold at Rock Island Auctions for $8,625 USD
including buyer's premium and fees.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3186
Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun manufactured in 1942. This take-down M1897 Trench Gun has the scarce and very desirable early WWII production features that include: (1) WWI style, six-hole hand guard/bayonet mount, (2) early pattern markings with "U.S." only on the left side of the receiver and (3) early Ordnance final inspection mark consisting of "W.B." in a rectangle above the small Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock. A small Ordnance 'Shell and Flame' inspection mark is stamped on the top of the barrel just ahead of the receiver. The shotgun has the Winchester commercial blue finish on the hand guard, barrel, magazine and receiver. The walnut stock and forearm have a dull varnish finish. The stock is fitted with a black, checkered, hard rubber, buttplate embossed with the round Winchester trademark and a sling swivel. The hand guard is fitted with the correct wire sling swivel above the bayonet lug. The underside of the barrel is stamped with the "42" (1942) production date. The left side of the barrel is stamped with the two-line legend: "MODEL-97-WINCHESTER-12 GA./-TRADE MARK-". "23/4 CHAMB./CYL." is stamped on the left side of the barrel between the Winchester legend and the receiver. The oval "WP" monogram/proof mark is stamped on the top of the barrel and the receiver. The serial number: "937039" is stamped on the underside of the barrel and "E/937039" is stamped on the underside of the receiver. The hand guard/bayonet lug is, correctly, not marked. Most WWII production Winchester M1897 Trench Guns were fitted with the later production, four-hole, hand guard/bayonet lug. These Trench Guns had the later style markings which consisted of "US" and the Ordnance "Shell and Flame' insignia on the left side of the receiver and "G.H.D" final inspection above the larger Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock. Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns, like this one, with the early hand guard and markings are scarce and very desirable.
BBL: 20 Inch
Stock: walnut
Gauge: 12
Finish: blue
Grips:
Serial Number: 937039
Condition: Excellent. The Trench Gun retains 95% of the original blue finish. Wear is limited to light scratches and storage marks on the sides of the receiver and some minor cycling marks on the magazine tube. The stock is highly figured walnut and is in excellent condition. The Ordnance inspection marks are crisp. Wear is limited to a minor scratch on the left side of the pistol grip. The forearm is in excellent condition. Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns saw extensive use in the Pacific Theater during WWII and remained in service until well after the Vietnam Conflict. As a result, examples of M1897 Trench Guns in original condition are scarce; early production M1897 Trench Guns like this example are very difficult to find with any amount of original finish.
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I guess a collector had a serious appetite for this early WWII Trench Gun
$8,625 including buyers premium and other fees at Rock Island Auction -Sept 2011.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3186
David
$8,625 including buyers premium and other fees at Rock Island Auction -Sept 2011.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3186
David
Excellent thread with lots of good info. I have a 1941 takedown trenchgun. I heard that someone brought in a bunch from Vietnam that were used hard and put away wet, which mine appears to be. Is there any truth to that rumour? I got it for a song, and it is an cornerstone of my collection. Feels great in the hand, and is a literal blast to shoot.
Great guns and informative thread. Thinking on it, wasn't there a Canadian gun shop who managed to find a bunch of Winchester riot guns of Vietnam War vintage about 9-10 years ago? I forget who, but remember they were retailing them under $1000. Anyone else,we remember them?
I sent the link to the Rock Island Auction to Bruce Canfield to get his opinion on the price realized of $8,625 including buyers premium and other fees.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3186
These are his comments.
"While it's probably the "top of the market" at this time, I can't say I'm terribly surprised that a near pristine WWII M97 trench gun would bring over $8K. A WWI trench gun in this condition would likely bring even more. The really primo examples are bringing top dollar and I don't see that trend changing. Original military shotguns have been undervalued for many years but that is obviously changing. Unfortunately, this has also resulted in more and more fakes being made."
A comment from Steve regarding the M97 shown in the link above.
It's a very nice early WW2 97 trench gun. Probably won't find one much nicer. It did sell for quite a high price, but within the past few years I've seen a minty WW1 1897 trench gun w/o hand stamped martial markings sell for nearly $9,000, and a minty Model 12 trench gun also sell for over $9,000. The really good stuff always commands high dollars.
----------------------------
Here is a link to a Rock Island Auction of a WWI Model 1897 trench gun....$8,050 including buyer's premium and other fees. (Sept 2011)
http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3202
If you click on the photo in the link they enlarge. (RIA has very good photography.)
This gun does not have martial markings as shown in the photo below.
This was highly possible for these WWI trench guns.
Note the difference in the shape of the stocks between the WWI and WWII trench guns.
David
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3186
These are his comments.
"While it's probably the "top of the market" at this time, I can't say I'm terribly surprised that a near pristine WWII M97 trench gun would bring over $8K. A WWI trench gun in this condition would likely bring even more. The really primo examples are bringing top dollar and I don't see that trend changing. Original military shotguns have been undervalued for many years but that is obviously changing. Unfortunately, this has also resulted in more and more fakes being made."
A comment from Steve regarding the M97 shown in the link above.
It's a very nice early WW2 97 trench gun. Probably won't find one much nicer. It did sell for quite a high price, but within the past few years I've seen a minty WW1 1897 trench gun w/o hand stamped martial markings sell for nearly $9,000, and a minty Model 12 trench gun also sell for over $9,000. The really good stuff always commands high dollars.
----------------------------
Here is a link to a Rock Island Auction of a WWI Model 1897 trench gun....$8,050 including buyer's premium and other fees. (Sept 2011)
http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3202
If you click on the photo in the link they enlarge. (RIA has very good photography.)
This gun does not have martial markings as shown in the photo below.
This was highly possible for these WWI trench guns.
Note the difference in the shape of the stocks between the WWI and WWII trench guns.
David
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Although not a military marked M97 riot gun this gun was shipped from Winchester
on October 7 1899 and is being auctioned by Rock Island Auctions in April 2012.
The military marked guns started out with the same finish.
During WWI there were 19,196 Winchester Model 1897 trench guns including riot guns purchased by the U.S. government with no known breakdown between the two models.
Serial number range on these Model 1897 WWI guns. (trench and riot guns-614,000-750,000.)
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/55/lid/3790
I assume that the WWI U.S. purchased Model 1897 riot guns would have had the same military markings as the WWI trench guns....as shown below.
(No periods between the U and after the S unlike the WWII guns where the US property markings are on the left side of the receiver with periods.)
The WWII marking.
It will be interesting to see what this fine early civilian M97 riot gun is worth in the eyes of the Rock Island Auction crowd.
David
on October 7 1899 and is being auctioned by Rock Island Auctions in April 2012.
The military marked guns started out with the same finish.
During WWI there were 19,196 Winchester Model 1897 trench guns including riot guns purchased by the U.S. government with no known breakdown between the two models.
Serial number range on these Model 1897 WWI guns. (trench and riot guns-614,000-750,000.)
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/55/lid/3790
I assume that the WWI U.S. purchased Model 1897 riot guns would have had the same military markings as the WWI trench guns....as shown below.
(No periods between the U and after the S unlike the WWII guns where the US property markings are on the left side of the receiver with periods.)
The WWII marking.
It will be interesting to see what this fine early civilian M97 riot gun is worth in the eyes of the Rock Island Auction crowd.
David
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