XCR-L vs Swiss Arms Classic Green

I own the XCR-L .223 and have the 7.62x39 conversion kit, waiting for an extra upper I recently ordered . I this luv this rifle, although I never tried the SA. Originally I was looking at the SA but with the tax etc...It was simply over my budget and adding all the extras for optics and stock etc...! Also if I wanted to use AR mags I would have had to spend another $400-$500 on a lower.

Plus I will be using the 7.62x39 for deer hunting this fall. I think bang for your buck and the ergonomics out-way the better quality of the SA. IMO parts are also easier to acquire for the XCR. I don't really see both of these rifles being target bench tac drivers anyway. If you want a bench rifle just go with the Remington 700 Mil-Spec.
If your looking for an all around .223 for the range, plinking in the woods, hunting and Service Rifle type matches go with the XCR.
Again this is only my point of view, here is a pic of my XCR :) As you can see I'm a fan of MAGPUL!

Feb232012055.jpg


Off the bench accuracy at 50m indoor during ZEROING my ELCAN started a bit high left

Feb232012017.jpg
 
ogradyrw said:
I own the XCR-L .223 and have the 7.62x39 conversion kit, waiting for an extra upper I recently ordered . I this luv this rifle, although I never tried the SA. Originally I was looking at the SA but with the tax etc...It was simply over my budget and adding all the extras for optics and stock etc...! Also if I wanted to use AR mags I would have had to spend another $400-$500 on a lower.

Plus I will be using the 7.62x39 for deer hunting this fall. I think bang for your buck and the ergonomics out-way the better quality of the SA. IMO parts are also easier to acquire for the XCR. I don't really see both of these rifles being target bench tac drivers anyway. If you want a bench rifle just go with the Remington 700 Mil-Spec.
If your looking for an all around .223 for the range, plinking in the woods, hunting and Service Rifle type matches go with the XCR.
Again this is only my point of view, here is a pic of my XCR :) As you can see I'm a fan of MAGPUL!


Feb232012055.jpg
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I hear ya brother. Thanks for chiming in. I see you went with the FDE XCR. It looks bada$$. I agree, sometimes we are looking for everything from one rifle and really they aren't designed to do it all. You make a good point about budget. The newer production XCR's are getting great reviews, and maybe it's enough to save a bit of cash and put it towards optics and ammo.
 
rivetc78 said:
I have never shot either of them.
And thinking about it, it would be a hard decision.

Just be happy it is a decision we are allowed to make :)

In the end, to me, I would go XCR. The price difference would get you 10 Mags, An Aimpoint T1 and 500 rounds of ammo for it.
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Yeah it surprised me when I was researching the Swiss Arms that you can't buy them in the US. In some of the US based forums there's some Canadian members taunting them with pics of their SA PE 90's. They're pissed!:mad: It's awesome that we got them one upped for once.
 
skooch said:
What are you getting from the Swiss Arms for the extra thousand bucks?

Accuracy. Quality. Reliability (but the XCR isn't too bad).
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+2, but I'll expand on that.

Accuracy: Swiss arms rifles come with an accuracy guarantee from the factory. Ten round at 300m inside 10x10cm

Quality: The materials, machining, R&D, trials and quality control the Swiss guns have gone through makes their products second to none. Robinson Armament pails in comparison - so much so it is laughable.

Reliability: hopefully the days of Robinson Armament using it's customer base as beta users is over, but I would suspect lingering issues with their products especially now that their new .308 is out. Unlike the crap-shoot represented by RA, there is no denying Swiss Arms reputation built on years of quality products.
 
beltfed said:
+2, but I'll expand on that.

Accuracy: Swiss arms rifles come with an accuracy guarantee from the factory. Ten round at 300m inside 10x10cm

Quality: The materials, machining, R&D, trials and quality control the Swiss guns have gone through makes their products second to none. Robinson Armament pails in comparison - so much so it is laughable.

Reliability: hopefully the days of Robinson Armament using it's customer base as beta users is over, but I would suspect lingering issues with their products especially now that their new .308 is out. Unlike the crap-shoot represented by RA, there is no denying Swiss Arms reputation built on years of quality products.
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I agree the SA is a higher end proven rifle system in many aspects but I would definitely NOT agree with "Armament pails in comparison - so much so it is laughable." There are many XCR owner's very pleased with latest generation but you have a point in the past there were issues and even Alex admits this to this on the XCR forums. It may NOT be for everyone but I am happy so far...

"Dear XCR Fans:

As usual I don't have much time to bother with tese sites. We've made a lot of much need changes at Robinson Armament Co. Before I address the changes, let me put things in perspective.

Robinson Armament could have made lots of money making AR-15 knockoffs. It would have been infinitely easier for us to have just made an upper receiver which would have fixed some but not all of the shortcomings of the AR-15. Instead, we ventured to make a better battle rifle. We began with the M96. The M96 was a tough project. It had a piston drive and a better bolt and ejector. However, it still retained many flaws that were inherent in Stoner's design. Many didn't buy the M96s because they were "too expensive" or "had ugly welds". Nevertheless, the M96 was a step in the right direction.

The XCR was designed almost totally from scratch. We make or have made almost every part, pin, and spring. The goals of the XCR were very ambitious. Especially, the modularity and multi-caliber aspects. I pose this question: How many other firms have really designed anything really new from scratch? FN, Remington, Bushmaster, Colt? The answer is none of them. (I must admit that at least FN has made the P90 and that 2000 Bullpup).

The fact is that almost every "new" rifle out there is based on someone else's work. The XCR is not. It is truly unique. Yes, it borrows some concepts from other rifles, but each part had to be designed without copying anything else to get the result we wanted. In short, Robinson Armament dared to challenge the establishment with a very different rifle.

Robinson Armament's efforts should have been embraced. However, from the beginning, we have nothing but crap on the internet. I distinctly remember posts on AR-15.com shortly after I announced the XCR. The post were that it was "Vaporware". Other posts exclaimed that it would never be built or never work as promised. Such posts made it very difficult to get the XCR off the ground and made people very skeptical of the new XCR.

Other posts exclaimed that we were going out of business. It seem that the whole rifle world was against us. I have often wondered why so much negativity for a new weapon platforms? It is as though people really don't want any new platforms. Thee people claim to want the best but all they do is whine. It is no wonder to me that others don't venture out with new designs - they are shot down before they begin.

It has been just over 5 years since the first XCR shipped. The XCR was not perfect and our processes and procedures for making it have not been perfect either. When we began the XCR, we had no manufacturing experience. Not only did we come up with a new and different rifle design, we had to learn to manufacture it.

I will say that learning to make the XCR has been equally or more demanding that designing it in the first place. It has taken over 5 years to get the XCR where it is. The XCR now shoots 4 calibers (we are just finishing testing 5.45x39mm). I shoots them all well. It has the best ergonomics on the planet, and the most modularity. It is also super reliable and durable.

With this background let me explain the much needed changes.

We spent much of this year retooling our shop to make XCR parts better and faster. Concurrently, we completely revamped our quality control, not only during making parts but during assembly and final testing. Every rifle that leaves our facility now is much more thoroughly tested. There should be few if any returns needed from this point forward.

In addition to making the rifle better, we have also gone through our complete staff and made the changes necessary to improve customer service which was sorely lacking. We have a completely new staff for sales and service who are eager to help. Turn around on any service problem will be very fast. To get fast service, read on.

I'd like to post just a few more comments regarding service. Some of you will not like these comments:

First, when you call for service, be polite. If you are not polite to my staff, I guaranty you will have a pleasant experience. Remember the old saying, "You can attract more files with honey that with vinegar." If you call with an attitude, my staff has been instructed to put you on the back burner. If you are nice and polite, you will get quicker service.

Second, please read the manual carefully. I know it's boring but there's important information there. Many people do not understand that you need to set the gas correctly for function and durability. It's really quite simple - put it on the setting that throws the brass 8 to 15 feet from the rifle for any given ammo. Do not just leave the gas system on the highest setting, If you do, for some ammo it will kick like hell, throw your brass 40 feet, give you trigger slap, and damage your recoil buffer (a cheap part).

Third, please send us the following information:

Name, Address, Email and Cell number;
Serial Number;
Signed Copy of your warranty Registration found in the last pages of the Operator's Manual; and
A complete description of the problem, BE BRIEF. If you write and essay about your vast knowledge of firearms base on your long time relationship with your AR-15, we won't read it.

We will authorize the return to us of part or all of your firearm. WE DO NOT PAY FOR SHIPPING TO US.

Fourth, if you post a bunch of whiny petty negative stuff here or anywhere, I guaranty very slow service. I have made that a policy. Yes, we've made lots of mistakes with service but that is behind us.

Now for some parting comments. I am very happy with the current state of the XCR. It continues to gain in popularity. A great part of our sales are to Military and Law Enforcement professionals. Though we've got the XCR to the point where is nearly perfect, we are not stopping. We will continue to perfect the platform and add accessories. Work continues on the XCR .308. It will be finished when it is perfect and we hope that will be soon.

We appreciate those who stand by and support us. They are true patriots. We have to question the motives of those who continue to tear us down on this forum. They cannot stop us. Their petty feeble minds are easily exposed. The XCR will gain momentum until it covers the whole earth. There is no other platform like it and it is the best.


Sincerely,

Alex J. Robinson
General Manager
Robinson Armament Co."


 
I have a Swiss 14.3 carbine. The thing is built like a tank. If you are looking for a rifle to double as a club I would say go for the swiss. Also the look of the rifle with the 20 round mag is just ###.
 
Bear in mind if you want to modify your Swiss Arms at all it's going to be pricey.
3500 for the Rifle
~600 for a quad rail
~150 for a top rail (if you don't opt for the flat top)
~500 for an adjustable butt-stock (OEM)
~100 for OEM mags, 40 for the Dominion Arms ones (which seem to hold up just as good)

The list goes on. My wallet weeps every time I go to the gunsmiths room at TSE to look at all the Swiss Arms stuff he has squirreled away (Calgary Shooting Centre is starting to stock a lot of SAN parts as well.)

But it's the rifle I wanted, and I wouldn't have been happy until I got it. Why settle for something you only kinda want. The quality is superb, the sights are excellent, it's solidly built (probably approaching 4000 rounds now without a single failure), simple to strip clean and maintain, etc etc.

I've shot an XCR a few times (and it was my second choice for my first black rifle) but I haven't put enough rounds downrange to make a detailed assessment of it.
 
ogradyrw said:
I agree the SA is a higher end proven rifle system in many aspects but I would definitely NOT agree with "Armament pails in comparison - so much so it is laughable." There are many XCR owner's very pleased with latest generation but you have a point in the past there were issues and even Alex admits this to this on the XCR forums. It may NOT be for everyone but I am happy so far...
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Comparing the XCR and Swiss for quality is, IMO, like comparing an RRA and KAC. The XCR, like the RRA, is not by any definition a bad gun, but it's not even approaching the level of the KAC or Swiss for quality. (And yes I have handled a KAC ;))
 
Depends what you want to do with it.

-.223 rifle to target shoot with, Swiss for damn sure (get the flat top if you want to use optics).
- if you want a bomb proof rifle for life, Swiss.
- Hunting, I would go XCR.
- If you really want to use AR mags, XCR
- If you like rails for accessories, XCR.
- Multi-cal capability, obviously the XCR.

Best info around on the Swiss rifles is right here if you have not read it already.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/
 
Davy Crockett said:
Life's too short to shoot ugly guns???

Did he actually say the looks had anything to do with performance? Seemed to me he was just expressing an opinion on appearance.

Really though, who cares if someone thinks esthetics are important? For the vast majority of us shooting is a hobby, not life and death, therefor function has every business coming second to form. Not all of us are arming up for the zombiepocalypse/ww3 or w/e.

That being said, someone really thinks the SA rifles are ugly?
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If you're primary concern is looks over function, buy airsoft, much cheaper and no license required. I do find it comical that so many view aesthetics as a primary concern when shopping for new hardware. In the same breath, these same people whine and b*tch when it doesn't run. if you have any desire to improve or excel in any discipline involving a firearm, then form must always follow function. If you're the bench riding firearms "enthusiast" then I guess its the other way around. Maybe I'm alone when I say that looking cool never quite felt as good as making hits at range on demand.

TDC
 
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I am getting a Swiss when I get home from overseas work. I was in major deliberations like you, until I read that letter by the General Manager that was posted here. I read it on the XCR forum. That guy has a very bad attitude. IMHO
 
I think the XCR is a better option than it was now with the improvements and the fast stock. The 308 XCR-M has my attention. I'll be keeping an eye on the reviews of that one.

I have a Swiss Arms PE-90 flat top target model. Its very nice. That being said I haven't shot it much, since I haven't got around to getting the target spring set installed. I have shot 1 moa with this rifle using American Eagle 62 grain ammo. I'm positive it can do better than that.

The Swiss Arms is very well built, and well though out. It's an older obsolete design, however they have added some smart features that have kept it current. The bolt release on the left helps make up for the charging handle on the right hand side. The folding stock is one of the few that I actually like, along with the trigger guard swinging out of the way for gloved fingers. Some nice touches. The XCR beats the Swiss in terms of ergonomics. Yes you can get the NEA lower and this will solve some of the ergonomic issues but it'll cost you another 1K.

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It took me a while at first to like the looks, but they have grown on me.

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With 5/30 round Swiss Mag. I actually like the look better with the short 5 round mag.

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Very Nice Rifle the Swiss Arms IMO:

Again my reason I chose the XCR over SA was based on budget and after factoring everything in. Sure the SA is overall a better quality rifle. But for my needs the XCR was a better choice for me. The caliber options, AR ergonomics to add attachments, easy to change stock, pistol grip and mount optics without having to mount any extra rails. Also the fact they are very popular on the Canadian market not to say the SA is not. The accuracy I have experienced was great in my view. Plus I like the fact I can convert this to 7.62x39 for hunting in less than 2 minutes.

I like both rifles I just cannot afford both right now. One day I may add the SA into my collection but for now the XCR has me at the range and dropping my money on ammo sending led down range :)

All rifles have there good points and not so good, you have to find what is best for your needs then stick with it and perfect your skills with it.

If we could own AR's that were non restricted I would save up and buy a Knights Armament :) As of now I could not justify spending so much money and only be able to shoot it indoor at 50m or a few SR matches... no point for me.

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J996 said:
Depends what you want to do with it.

-.223 rifle to target shoot with, Swiss for damn sure (get the flat top if you want to use optics).
- if you want a bomb proof rifle for life, Swiss.
- Hunting, I would go XCR.
- If you really want to use AR mags, XCR
- If you like rails for accessories, XCR.
- Multi-cal capability, obviously the XCR.

Best info around on the Swiss rifles is right here if you have not read it already.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/
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Thanks for the link.
 
PrairieSniper said:
Is the target model NR? Wolverine's website shows them as restricted.

http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/details/12939/Swiss-Arms-Black-Special-Target-Rifle-223-Rem.aspx
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Looks like its a carbine length.

Swiss Arms Black Special Target Rifle .223 Rem.

* Action: Semi-Auto Gas Operated
* Magazine Capacity: 5 Rounds (2 included)
* Barrel: 17"
* Trigger pull weight: 7.72 lbs.
* Sights: Diopter 100-400 meter
* Includes: sling, cleaning kit, loading tool, manual
* Classification: Restricted
 
PrairieSniper said:
Yeah it surprised me when I was researching the Swiss Arms that you can't buy them in the US. In some of the US based forums there's some Canadian members taunting them with pics of their SA PE 90's. They're pissed!:mad: It's awesome that we got them one upped for once.
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I would never do that. :D
 
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