XCR-M or Keltec RFB

ArmedGinger

ArmedGinger

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Looking at a non-restricted Semi auto rifle in .308! Would love one of the BCL102 rifles but I'm getting tired of waiting for more to be made and certainly used 102's are showing up on the EE very often.

So, between the XCR-M and the RFB which would you choose and why? Both can be had for the $1900-$2100 mark.
 
I've owned both. Depends on what you want it for.

RFB is a high-tech, completely ambidextrous, compact, moderately-accurate, reliable hunting rifle. I'd never use it if my life depended on it - mine was really reliable, but having to remove the magazine and peer into the magwell to ensure it was clear, or to check malfunctions, was a deal breaker for me. If you're using it as a plinker, or for hunting, it's a good rifle.

Recent production XCRs are longer, heavier, moderately accurate, reliable hunting or tactical rifles. Manual of arms is familiar, and malfunctions are easy to clear, so it gets my vote.

Famae 542 is also nice, for about the same price used as the others you mentioned, though the ergos are more old-school... though I never hear anyone complaining about the ergonomics of the Swiss Arms rifles, which function identically. I personally really like mine.

Used Modern Hunter may also be an option for you... but more cash though.
 
I loved and miss my RFB, I had an XCR-L and while it was nice I dont miss it like the RFB. The XCR is an incremental improvement on an old design, there are many similar platforms, many of which are unavailable to us. The RFB can be as accurate as an XCR-M (although I’ve heard of some great shooting XCR-m’s I’ve never seen a stock one shoot to that standard personally) but at a shorter OAL and with forward ejection. The RFB carries better (relating it to my MH and other non bull pup 308 rifles I have shot) it’s better in just about every situation except on the bench, the RFB has a strange recoil impulse, most noticeable on the bench and can be hard to shoot groups with, the centre of balance makes muzzle flip more noticeable and can take some practice to get used to the very different movements associated with the bullpup design, especially in 308. Also the RFB has a long throat, they did this for reliablility, so proper bullet selection is more critical, my RFB didn’t like anything under 168gr (amax), longer or less pointy projectiles worked the best for me. 110vmax’s were terrible, but they are very short bullets. That being said the RFB is more close range fire power than SPR, a custom barreled XCR has more accuracy potential or so I have heard. Set them both on a table I’d pick the RFB every time, it appeals to me more, but that my opinion. Go shoot them both and maybe others would be the best advice I could give. The tavor is reportedly coming out in 308 this year as well might be something to consider. On a side note, I just got a Troy PAR on an EE trade and I absolutely love that thing, didn’t think I would but it’s an awesome little gun for relatively cheap. View attachment 124255
 
Uisge said:
I loved and miss my RFB, I had an XCR-L and while it was nice I dont miss it like the RFB. The XCR is an incremental improvement on an old design, there are many similar platforms, many of which are unavailable to us. The RFB can be as accurate as an XCR-M (although I’ve heard of some great shooting XCR-m’s I’ve never seen a stock one shoot to that standard personally) but at a shorter OAL and with forward ejection. The RFB carries better (relating it to my MH and other non bull pup 308 rifles I have shot) it’s better in just about every situation except on the bench, the RFB has a strange recoil impulse, most noticeable on the bench and can be hard to shoot groups with, the centre of balance makes muzzle flip more noticeable and can take some practice to get used to the very different movements associated with the bullpup design, especially in 308. Also the RFB has a long throat, they did this for reliablility, so proper bullet selection is more critical, my RFB didn’t like anything under 168gr (amax), longer or less pointy projectiles worked the best for me. 110vmax’s were terrible, but they are very short bullets. That being said the RFB is more close range fire power than SPR, a custom barreled XCR has more accuracy potential or so I have heard. Set them both on a table I’d pick the RFB every time, it appeals to me more, but that my opinion. Go shoot them both and maybe others would be the best advice I could give. The tavor is reportedly coming out in 308 this year as well might be something to consider. On a side note, I just got a Troy PAR on an EE trade and I absolutely love that thing, didn’t think I would but it’s an awesome little gun for relatively cheap. View attachment 124255
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My experience with the RFB was very similar, except I was able to handload for mine and get reliable function and sub 2 moa accuracy from everything from 110gr V-max through 165gr SST's, 1.5 moa was about the best I could do with my best load but it was not consistent enough to really call it a 1.5 moa rifle. I found it to be accurate enough for hunting, it was awesome on a sling while riding around on the quad, had a nice smooth recoil impulse when the gas system was tuned correctly for the ammo being used, and was just a really neat rifle. It was however very difficult to shoot tight groups with off the bench, it was very awkward to support properly resulting in most people not liking the accuracy they could get from it.

I've only shot one XCR-M, a friend of mine used to have one, with his handloads it was about the same as the RFB for accuracy but was much easier to shoot from the bench, it was however nowhere near as nice to carry in the field.

Both rifles are reliable and accurate enough for field work. Don't buy either of them if you want to shoot from the bench and make groups on paper all day though.

I now own a Modern Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor, I think I've finally found my load for it and have printed a couple groups now right around 1 moa (best was 0.98 moa). It handles great, has great ergonomics, and has proven to be very reliable so far with only two failures and both appear to be magazine related.
I still miss my RFB once in a while but would take my MH over any other non restricted 308 available to us currently, I'd take the MH over either of the AR-10's I've owned as well and one was a very nice Mega Arms build.
The 102 looks to have potential but so far I'm not impressed with the build consistency being reported, too many problems considering how few have been released so far. If they can sort out their QC issues and dump the "match" chamber in favor of something a little more forgiving they will definitely have a rifle worth looking at.

The Troy PAR is very interesting as well, I'd definitely like to try one some day, same with the Famme. I liked my Swiss Arms classic green so figure I'd like the Famme except the price of magazines for the 308 version are ridiculously expensive. I don't know what the accuracy of either is like but I'd wager the Troy would win between the two in that category.

I've also spent some time with an Fnar, very nice rifle but my friend just couldn't get it to consistently shoot 1 moa even with handloads, still plenty good for hunting and very reliable.
 
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Uisge said:
Kudos on the 110’s, I didn’t try too hard knowing the long jump to lands. Now I miss it even more knowing what could have been lol
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I don't worry about jump, I think people on here make too big of a deal of it. Almost all my handloads are made to the length the bullet manufacturer says to load them to. Only my bolt action target rifles get loaded longer if the magazine allows for it. Loading longer is fine tuning not the make it or break it of a load. Certain bullets are much more temperamental of course but in general I've found it can take a good load and make it a little better but I've never seen a 2 moa load transform into a 1/2 moa load just from fiddling with the COL.

That same 110gr load was actually sub moa in my DPMS LR308 (24" stainless barrel). Total fluke but I sure wish I could have taken that rifle varmint hunting with that round :p
I'll see if I still have my load data from that one and PM it to you, might work nicely in the PAR :)
 
My PAR is close to MOA with my current loading with the 110’s, truth be told I tried the Noveske 110’s and didn’t get very great results, loaded up a few but never fully pursued the load development mainly based on my findings with the factory stuff. The noveske stuff shoots almost as good as my load out of the PAR, might have to run some through the modern Hunter, but it’s kind of a bear to pack on a coyote hunt anyways, probably not worth the time. But sorry for the derail OP, hopefully we have been helpful.
 
Well,

I haven’t really ever liked the feel of any kel Tec I’ve handled . (Sub2k, KSG, SU-16). They seem cheaply made, and have some cycling reliability issues. The only one I haven’t touched yet is the RFB. So I can’t really compare the two.

But I have loved both my XCRs. Having had the quad rail AND the keymod versions, I can easily say there is no comparison between the two. The Keymod is much less front heavy, and has simpler parts than the previous gen. It runs flawlessly with 7.62 surplus, handloads, and any factory ammo I feed it. I’ve moved on to the BCL, so I’m selling my XCR now. No fault of its own, just trying to reduce the herd a bit.
 
I've been waiting to post on this thread from the start, but avoided it. I could write a crap ton on why the XCR-M over Kel Tec. Obviously I would say XCR-M over the Kel Tec if nothing more, than for build quality. Not even in the same universe.

Prefer the ergos and build quality of the XCR for sure, and parts supply. Having owned a few Kel Tec and knowing their issues, I wont own them again until their game is stepped way, way up, and even then I'll be doubtful. Kel Tec = Craptastic, XCR = Fantastic.
 
xdmer said:
I've been waiting to post on this thread from the start, but avoided it. I could write a crap ton on why the XCR-M over Kel Tec. Obviously I would say XCR-M over the Kel Tec if nothing more, than for build quality. Not even in the same universe.

Prefer the ergos and build quality of the XCR for sure, and parts supply. Having owned a few Kel Tec and knowing their issues, I wont own them again until their game is stepped way, way up, and even then I'll be doubtful. Kel Tec = Craptastic, XCR = Fantastic.
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Other Keltecs I've handled, I'd agree with you - I wasn't particularly impressed. Gen 1 RFB was a different story - very well designed (although I didn't like every feature of the design) and well put together. The plastic parts and many, many bolts seemed a bit cheap, but the metal was well done... nothing wrong with build quality on mine. It was reliable and worked well.
 
ArmedGinger said:
Looking at a non-restricted Semi auto rifle in .308! Would love one of the BCL102 rifles but I'm getting tired of waiting for more to be made and certainly used 102's are showing up on the EE very often.

So, between the XCR-M and the RFB which would you choose and why? Both can be had for the $1900-$2100 mark.
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RFB if you want accuracy, mine was a 1moa gun with premium factory ammo for 3 rnd groups, after that it opened up to 1.5 moa. No malfunctions after the gas system was properly adjusted for ammo type.

I have never been able to attain this type of accuracy with the xcr, the xcr is also heavy and long, not that the rfb is light, but the weight being closer to you makes handling it that much easier. The barrel retention method will never allow the xcr to be an accurate rifle.
 
Forget the xcr-m. If you want to compare to the rfb, look at the bcl102 or the sg542.

The xcr is big, heavy, overpriced, and less accurate than the others listed here.

For the price, the 102 probably has the edge. There is a hefty NR tax on the rfb - they sell new on GB in the $1200 usd range, but here cost $2300+ at dealers.
 
I run both (RFB is 24: Hunter model, XCR-M is HB quadrail in OD) & enjoy them both immensly.
Accurate enough and have shot them well out to 600m with surplus ammo: would love to work up good loads when time permits.
I have hunted with and taken big game with both. RFB for balance & compactness (especially in the thicker brush) and the ejection port is a dream if you reload!
Ergo's are a little better on the XCR-M but that's only because we are comparing it to a bullpup which when compared to "conventional designs" it is always a little more ackward by nature.

Only downside to my XCR-M is the weight.
Downside to the RFB is if you want to shoot prone and support the buttstock you got to watch your support hand or it can at times hit the mag release lol

Build quality: the XCR-M appears to look better built because its all metal though I can honestly say that the rfb is a tank and ran like a champ. I ran it very hard several times without issues. The plastic feel misrepresents the build quality.

Either will serve you well and I am sure you will be pleased.
 
Claven2 said:
Forget the xcr-m. If you want to compare to the rfb, look at the bcl102 or the sg542.

The xcr is big, heavy, overpriced, and less accurate than the others listed here.

For the price, the 102 probably has the edge. There is a hefty NR tax on the rfb - they sell new on GB in the $1200 usd range, but here cost $2300+ at dealers.
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I'd go with a 102 in a heart beat but they just aren't available
 
Claven2 said:
Forget the xcr-m. If you want to compare to the rfb, look at the bcl102 or the sg542.

The xcr is big, heavy, overpriced, and less accurate than the others listed here.

For the price, the 102 probably has the edge. There is a hefty NR tax on the rfb - they sell new on GB in the $1200 usd range, but here cost $2300+ at dealers.
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To answer your comments on the xcr-m; I just got the latest light barreled "m" chambered xcr-m about a month ago. With four range trips, I can honestly say, this rifle has far exceeded my expectations. 1-1.5" 5rnd groups with 150gr hrndy fmjbt over 45 gr Varget. The same with 168gr Nos hpbt over 42 imr 8208 xbr. The shocker..... Norc surplus groups 2-2.5???!!! And it doesn't chew the brass all up.

Anyways, those are my results, and I know there are lots of horror stories from earlier gens.
 
Jonesyatpl said:
And that is the key. Much like the NEA's bad rap. Earlier XCR-M gen's performance should not be compared to the latest offering.
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It's still a $3000+ rifle competing with $2100 SG542's, $2300 RFBs and $1500 BCL102's. There is NOTHING about the XCR to justify its much higher cost IMHO.
 
There is a lot to justify a higher cost, but prices today are out to lunch. Price / Performance if just looking for a semi 308, OP should get in line for 102. I'm not aware of any other options coming out.
Claven2 said:
It's still a $3000+ rifle competing with $2100 SG542's, $2300 RFBs and $1500 BCL102's. There is NOTHING about the XCR to justify its much higher cost IMHO.
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Jonesyatpl said:
And that is the key. Much like the NEA's bad rap. Earlier XCR-M gen's performance should not be compared to the latest offering.
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Unfortunately I haven't seen enough evidence yet that NEA/BCL has moved much past what got them their bad reputation, considering how few 102's are in customers hands so far there have definitely been more than a couple of people with problems.
The 102 has a lot of potential but first batch was hit or miss and they should have made sure every one of them was perfect before it left the shop.

If a 102 is what you want don't buy one of these other options just because they are available and the 102 is backordered. It won't take long for them to get more together. Neither of these is anything like the 102 and you'll probably be disappointed if you want a light weight fairly accurate semi auto.

By the way, if you decide to go with the RFB don't waste your time on the 24 inch model, the whole point of a bullpup is it's compact dimensions, don't throw that away for 6 more inches of barrel. I contacted Kel-Tec directly and was told they come from the same barrel blanks, they just finish them to different lengths which means it won't be any more accurate than the short barrel and since these aren't the most accurate rifles your not going to be shooting 600+ yards and needing the extra couple hundred feet per second for the slightly flatter trajectory.
 
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