Xcr vs ACR
- Thread starter Czarface
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The acr is 8.2 pounds.
Hardly backbreaking, lol.
.4 pounds for sub moa vs 3 moa ?
Hell yes.
The only deciding factor that would make one purchase an xcr over a nr acr, would be overall cost. That's it.
I've owned both. Have you ?
Hardly backbreaking, lol.
.4 pounds for sub moa vs 3 moa ?
Hell yes.
The only deciding factor that would make one purchase an xcr over a nr acr, would be overall cost. That's it.
I've owned both. Have you ?
Yes.... Plus the user error induced from shooting off hand.
Or are you saying you can shoot the xcr to the same level of accuracy unsupported or benched ?
I suppose you might get lucky and pull 4 moa left, when you're gun is shooting 4 moa right from your point of aim, lol !
This.
Now add in a bit of distance, lets say 300m which is medium distance for a modern 556 rifle.
Our 8 MOA translates into a 24" pattern. A pattern that large offers misses.
But real world has more than just sandbagged bench Vs offhand standing. Overlooked is prone, squatting/kneeling, standing but using a marksman's sling for stability.
I have no dog in this debate, I don't own either of these products. But...XCR has been out for many years, not adopted by any military or paramilitary unit AFAIK. And if low-mileage civilian hobbyists are complaining about the occasional parts breakages, this does not inspire confidence for a new buyer.
The ACR is new. So new, that its track record, and reputation are not old enough to be sure if it can truly be trusted. But at least a small sample of units are being field tested by specops operators...no idea what they think of them though. And one country has adopted it for a small number of designated marksmen (which becomes the Canadian Non Restricted variant due to longer barrel from factory). But...both are such small numbers as to not really be any further ahead than the XCR.
Contrast those against the decade of urban warfare seen by Tavor users in Israel, Lebanon ops, and routine patrols in disputed territories. Its proven itself massively. No its no accuracy machine, but it is proven for very harsh conditions, very high mileage, handy for vehicle and CQB urban. Adopted by India special forces, Guatemalan Navy special forces, now produced by Taurus under license for use by Brazilian special forces, Colombian special forces army and police, Azerbaijan specops, Georgian army bought 20,000 units, Thailand bought 58,000 units, Ukraine was about to start manufacturing setup for Tavors in 5.45 cartridge though I'm sure that's in limbo now Putin is seizing the country...oh and Vietnam is also buying Tavors for specops marines and navy. Anyway, with only a decade on the market, the Tavor is being used by quite a lot of military units, speops units, around the world.
We could then look at the two decades for the Swiss Arms, in use by an awful lot of specops hostage rescue teams. And several armies.
Yet the XCR has been around almost as long as the Tavor and...well, I think the users list speaks for itself.
Could the XCR and ACR prove themselves in future? Absolutely they might. But its not a guarantee. Reputation comes from many early users reporting good results. But even if your product is good, if sales are low, you may not generate much reputation statements.
Im saying that its not a multiplication table. Im saying that shooting from a sandbag is largely irrelevant to a discussion about battle rifles, and that the initial 1 MOA vs 4 MOA (supposedly, mind you) limits of the guns don't apply over all conditions and distances. I'd consider you an EXCELLENT (dictionary definition of the word) shooter if you could do 4-5 MOA off-hand... the more likely result is 6+ MOA. This would mean 6x larger groups for your ACR comparing bench and off-hand. You're telling me then that the 4 MOA XCR can only get you 24" groups off-hand? That's preposterous. Think about it.
Has anyone noticed such a thing when shooting? Im genuinely curious to see how differences from the sandbag translate to off-hand shooting. I've never tracked groups from a bench as it just doesn't interest me. Didn't mean to steer this so far from whatever the topic was lol
edit: ntm also I realize my own error there in multiplying the results, you weren't implying that.
edit: ntm also I realize my own error there in multiplying the results, you weren't implying that.
It's always important to do a lot of research and decide what you as an individual are comfortable with...
http://www.xcrforum.com/forum/19-308-winchester-7-62-51mm/4098-xcr-m-accuracy.html
The xcr forum is also a great resource... you will notice a familiar name in there.
http://www.xcrforum.com/forum/19-308-winchester-7-62-51mm/4098-xcr-m-accuracy.html
The xcr forum is also a great resource... you will notice a familiar name in there.
Its interesting how many people seem to have very favourable results with their guns in that thread. I'd draw the conclusion to be a QC issue and perhaps ntm just didn't have a gun that was as well fitted as the next one on the line. Its a reasonable conclusion based on the number of people who claim very good groups with the same gun... unless they're liars. Stranger things have happened though.
I presume that was the xcr-m thread.
The 308 caliber simply exaggerates the xcr's main design flaw, the barrel retention system. The barrel was also of rather crude manufacture ( I have a bore scope).
Mine was representative of most xcr-m's.
Some people don't like to face reality in regards to a rifle they own though, as is clearly played out in that xcr forum thread, and to some extent, this thread as well.
I also owned an xcr-l in .223. It demonstrated less vertical stringing, but it was still there in the same pattern.
For offhand shooting, or other unconventional positions, 3 moa is very doable with a 1 moa gun, good sling and practice.
I love how any thread with xcr in the title immediately ignites a pi$$ing match haha. It's a little bonus owning an xcr, pi$$ing off the anti's and pi$$ing off some of these guys on CGN
To the op though, having HANDLED an acr and owning an xcr, I can tell you the only reason I went with the xcr is the price. That being said, I am extremely happy with its performance and reliability. I don't see myself ever selling unless ar15 becomes unrestricted (at which point, the xcr sales in Canada will be almost 0 haha)
Specs an weight wise I can only comment on my xcr. I get roughly 2moa in the prone and people always complain about the weight of the xcr and being front heavy. It's 11 pounds! If your struggling to do snap shooting or hold this rifle up for extended periods, its either time to hit the gym or go see a doctor. Of course shooting a 6 pound ar (if they exist that light) is nice and all but that doesn't change the fact that if 11 pounds is troublesome, you have a bigger problem.
To the op though, having HANDLED an acr and owning an xcr, I can tell you the only reason I went with the xcr is the price. That being said, I am extremely happy with its performance and reliability. I don't see myself ever selling unless ar15 becomes unrestricted (at which point, the xcr sales in Canada will be almost 0 haha)
Specs an weight wise I can only comment on my xcr. I get roughly 2moa in the prone and people always complain about the weight of the xcr and being front heavy. It's 11 pounds! If your struggling to do snap shooting or hold this rifle up for extended periods, its either time to hit the gym or go see a doctor. Of course shooting a 6 pound ar (if they exist that light) is nice and all but that doesn't change the fact that if 11 pounds is troublesome, you have a bigger problem.
At 300m,
standing...
unsuported...???
Uh, ya, 24" group IS possible. Esp if the rifle/ammo combo is only giving ya 4moa to begin with. And other factors, like the uiman and his environment can really add to that.
Might it do better than 24" ? Sure...but that would need some luck, perhaps ammo that behaves tighter than normalf
For your special group, extra skill at offhand rifle shooting, extremely focused and with full strength. Reduce the factors that lead to 4moa + 4moa, and you could shrink that considerably. Or if unlucky, you might not shrink it at all.
The faster or slower your lock time, will have a larger effect on offhand shooting than say fully supported by bags on a bench/bipod. Because locktime reduces the time between pulling the trigger, and the barrel wandering away from bullseye.
Thing is, fast locktimes are normally seen on precision rifles...military style semi autos are generally created with fire controls not set for short lock, but to prevent unintended discharges when rifle is dropped from 6 feet. And the ability to ignite primers that are extra tough (common with mil ammo). Reliability and safety become higher priority than pure marksmanship aids that won't be noticed by many soldiers. But maybe a Timney or Geissele could improve that for you.
The other factor to consider is, what if your XCR is actually capable of better groups than every shooter has been able to extract? Have they tried it with really nice glass with a solid ring mount? Have they tried all weights and brands before declaring it 4moa? 5.56 .223R is ESPECIALLY sensitive to the relationship between bullet weight and barrel twist. 1" different twist, or 3 grains of bullet heavier or lighter can double or half your group size. Or more.
I try not to get sucked in, but the whole "it's the best, because I own one" thing makes me nuts.
If you ask me which one is better, I'll tell you which one is better. Because I've owned both. I have that knowledge gained directly through experience with both rifles. It is not a close contest between the acr and xcr.
So it makes me a little crazy when guys that have relatively limited experience with one or the other suggest otherwise.
Surely there are guys out there backing up their claims of better accuracy? If Robarms QC is less than stellar its entirely possible your particular XCR(s) weren't quite built as well as others? Considering some guns are reaching users with crooked barrels, its not unimaginable that you also had an 'off' product.
Of course that opens another can of worms entirely..
read this off the acr forum
http://www.acrforum.com/forum/acr-technical-discussion/543-accuracy-input-please-2.html
Just saying do your own research and be comfortable with your own decisions
You could find good and bad about every rifle
google problems with tavor and magpul... some people say that can damage it
Just saying do your own research and be comfortable with your own decisions
You could find good and bad about every rifle
google problems with tavor and magpul... some people say that can damage it
Yea, and the Tavor-Magpul situation was figured out within hours and got corrected with Gen3 Magpul mags. And older mags are easily fixed of this simply by using a file for 2 minutes. Not only that, but lots of other rifles had the same issue, same fix.
Unfortunately I dont own an ACR and my trigger time behind one hasn't been there either. Although I have gotton to fire the ACR several times at the range and I'm not debating it's not an excellent carbine. I believe the the XCR like any carbine has had it's hick-up along the way and the ACR is certainly not exempt. This debate kind of really makes me want to add one to my collection....(wife groans in the background) I can appreciate everything that your saying for sure. Sub moa consistenly? Just curious ranged distance and rounds used and amount? I havn't gotton into 3 gun yet mostly due to distance I'd have to travel. I do have access to alot of our family land I don't mind the weight of the XCR walking through the property. I'm not saying get a bolt gun or even an sl8 as you mentioned, I'm just saying that obviously there are different firearms designed for different purposes. You don't use a kitchen knife to chop wood, or maybe you do haha. I don't know maybe it's just me I don't reach for the XCR to go deer hunting which is nothing against the caliber as I use my bolt .223 for anything from gophers to deer. If the question comes down to someone coming into this type of rifle for the first time I believe the the XCR as an all around carbine not only for price, looks and accessability but for user friendliness and post-purchase support you just can't go wrong.
I am curious as I have not put in a couple hours at a time on an ACR. A really good friend of mine puts his NR ACR through the paces and he says that a frustrating part of the stock is that it doesn't continue to function smoothly if it doesn't remain clean. He also mentioned that the pistol grip on the ACR which to my knowledge is unchangable is unnatural in it's feel. Curious not only to you but any other ACR owners are you finding these problems or maybe more accurately simple complaints?
So it took a Gen 3 of the pmags or you had to file your mags to fix this issue with many rifles... wow.. you wouldn't expect that from a huge company like magpul
Point being people love baggin RA and to some extent it's well earned with some of the issues...
When people say that they are the only company guilty of this... well....
Try better ammo. If you're running Norinco switching will shrink your groups. My buddy had last gen before keymod and was shooting Norinco making 6 inch groups and I let him try my 55gr dirtybird and the groups shrunk to 4 inch at 100yds. He was fairly new to shooting at the time and could probably do better now. He's a convert though, ditched the XCR and now has ACR.
I would be more than willing to take you to the range if you are ever in the Edmonton area Mon-Fri with some free time on one of my days off or to bring my ACR down to Calgary one of the times I come down to visit the wife's sisters so she can visit her new nephew.
I think you will be surprised how nice an ACR handles with a light weight non restricted barrel. I'd also like a chance to try the new keymod XCR.
Offer out to anyone in the area, my only conditions are that you have to have something interesting for me to try and my rifles will never see Norinco or MFS crap ammo so don't bring any. Other than that you're free to run as much ammo through it as you want (within reason). I'll also throw the 6.8SPC and the 300BLACKOUT barrel in for you to try a few rounds.
I don't think this needs to be a p!ssing match, better if we just go shooting and have some fun. I'm definitely no run and gun master, most of my shooting is off the bench doing load development on one of my 4 223's or for my other rifles.
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