Paul not really if you were to look at the AK system the eastern bloc ammunition is very far from a true standard of performance an yet the AK system works very well . If one were to look back at the development of the gas piston operating system you will find we have come pretty much full circle meaning that many of piston drive firearms are using non adjustable systems . Many manufacures know more about the piston drive systems and how to make them work with out requiring an adjustable system which adds costs and yes frustration to the user.The other reason is quite simple ammunition variances in performance have improved dramitcally since the 50's.
XCR What happened?
- Thread starter midnightpossum
- Start date
Paul not really if you were to look at the AK system the eastern bloc ammunition is very far from a true standard of performance an yet the AK system works very well . If one were to look back at the development of the gas piston operating system you will find we have come pretty much full circle meaning that many of piston drive firearms are using non adjustable systems . Many manufacures know more about the piston drive systems and how to make them work with out requiring an adjustable system which adds costs and yes frustration to the user.The other reason is quite simple ammunition variances in performance have improved dramitcally since the 50's.
Umm... love it.
That's from 50 yds, with an EOtech, from a bipod, using regular, inexpensive, winchester white box .223 ammunition. The two 'fliers' are my fault.
Those probably arn't fliers. Here are two links that speak to why.
The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=279218
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844909#Post1844909
It's funny how many people jump all over the chances to trash on the xcr. It should be able to run all ammo, this gun doesn't need a muti position gas valve, blah blah blah. Well your right there was no real need to have more than 1 setting on he xcr, it could have just had a fixed port that was large enough to cycle all types of ammo like your ar's ak's, m14's, cz's and so on. The thing is those those things were not designed to shoot
a large variety of of callibers and pressure levels. You don't HAVE to change the setting, just leave it on 4 and it'll cycle everything but the odd surplus. Let's not forget the quality control of the surplus ammo that came from different factorys in different countries with a goal of super mass production from low grade materials. Remember many of those
other reliable guns are also made of steel that is able to handle more abusive cycling caused by the larger ports to ensure reliable cycling. The guys with ar's also seem to forget all about the flaws on the ar platform, broken bolt carriers, carrier tilt and so on. There's also various volume gas tubes, springs and so on for ar's so they can be tuned
to shoot variouse pressure levels reliably, they don't shoot them
all without making major changes to the system and that
my friends is why so many companies sell you a complete upper that is specifically
tuned for one type of ammo. So back to the gas valve... If it's that hard to figure
out what setting out of a whopping 5 choices including suppressed, it's time to put away your guns and pick up some knitting equipment.
a large variety of of callibers and pressure levels. You don't HAVE to change the setting, just leave it on 4 and it'll cycle everything but the odd surplus. Let's not forget the quality control of the surplus ammo that came from different factorys in different countries with a goal of super mass production from low grade materials. Remember many of those
other reliable guns are also made of steel that is able to handle more abusive cycling caused by the larger ports to ensure reliable cycling. The guys with ar's also seem to forget all about the flaws on the ar platform, broken bolt carriers, carrier tilt and so on. There's also various volume gas tubes, springs and so on for ar's so they can be tuned
to shoot variouse pressure levels reliably, they don't shoot them
all without making major changes to the system and that
my friends is why so many companies sell you a complete upper that is specifically
tuned for one type of ammo. So back to the gas valve... If it's that hard to figure
out what setting out of a whopping 5 choices including suppressed, it's time to put away your guns and pick up some knitting equipment.
No, they are fliers. I shot all five. From a Bipod. This was after about 30 rounds getting the scope to Zero. I shot another series of groups at 100 yds shortly afterwards, they were about a 2" group over 6 shots. It would have been more like 1.5", but I jerked one. Then I changed position on the target and shot a 4 round group that was about 1.25". I then swapped to the metal gongs at 100 yds. I hit them every time (but to be fair, they're pretty big) out of 60 shots (though some were standing). And, do remember, that this is with an EOTech, not a 5-24x.
It really is shooting that nicely.
XCR was designed for the SOCOM's SCAR competition. One of the competition requirement was the ability to reliably cycle sub-sonic rounds. Therefore every single one of the SCAR competition submissions had an adjustable gas valve.
Sure. Did the other entries have the same level of problems cycling commonly available off the shelf ammo though? Many rifles have adjustable gas. The XCR is the only one I know of that leaves the factory saying that the end user should follow a "break in" for reliable functioning, and requires that the gas be set just right for different ammo. I don't know of another system this "finicky".
If that is the case, then why is the target that he chose to illustrate the perforance of the XCR the one that had a 40% flier rate, and the 60% non fliers low of presumed POA?
He can call them "flyers" as he was aware of the exact position of his dot on the target when the sear broke. calling shots is not difficult, just need to shoot lots (and not have a bad flinch)
cueball
If that is the case, then why is the target that he chose to illustrate the perforance of the XCR the one that had a 40% flier rate, and the 60% non fliers low of presumed POA?
- Location
- 54°52'56"N 112°10'7"W Alpha Bravo
Flaws of design? Hmm I'd say if anything it's flaws of said parts. Perhaps why us AR guys forget about these so called "flaws" is because they're a very rare occurance. Personally, I see waaay more threads on this forum about problems with the XCR then I do the AR. I think that speaks volumes about the reliability of the AR platform.
If it were me, and I were trying to establish the accuracy of a rifle I owned, those two targets are not what I would post.
What would interest me would be, say, 20 targets, 5 round groups (or hell, ten, why not), and no "this is a flyer, that is a flyer".
At the moment we're looking at a single instance of a somewhat close-ish group of three shots, all of which hit low of the target. What possible information can we get from this? This is the equivalent of taking a Honda Civic around an unknown track five times, posting your times, and saying "the two bad laps are because I blew a shift in corner four, and all my times would have been better, but it was raining".
At least it's in keeping with everything else about the XCR, I guess.
No, they are fliers. I knew as soon as the bullet left the barrel that I jerked it on those two shots. Lets also be very clear, what you're seeing is a target that measures 4" wide. Even if you take the fliers in, its still only about 1.5" at the widest. The fact is, it shoots better than I do.
Also, remember that (a) I wasn't shooting from a bench rest. (b) I was not using a high powered scope but an EOTech.
Several 10 shot groups, or an even larger number of small numbered groups is a pretty common request when talking about precision of a rifle. Especially important with semis, moreso with piston semis IMO.
It would be nice to see a 10 shot group from any black rifle mentioned on this forum. Im yet to come across one.
I think alot of people are posting 3 shot groups cause most of have a background in bolt rifles where 3 and 5 shot groups seem to be the norm in terms of accuracy testing.
Id be happy with a 2 moa 10 shot group from my XCR, nothing wrong with that.
Cheers!!
