Xm8

It became a Joint Project - and is open to all.


DocGKR said:
I have no finanical ties to HK or any other firearms or ammunition manufacturer, distributor, or other industry entity. Regarding the SAR article handjob on the HK 416: the technical descriptions of the HK416 design, operation, procurement, and current combat use are all accurate, including the 416’s 6.8mm capability. Clearly the author, Mr. Robert Bruce, is not an investigative journalist, but rather a novelist or PR scribe, as much of the article reads like a fairy tale or advertising drivel. Oh, wait--is this is same Robert Bruce that is linked with HKD in the UK? Maybe cronyism is alive and well…

“This reporter believes the problem can be summed up neatly with just one word: Lawsuits.”

The reporter needs to dig deeper, as the above comment is NOT accurate. But that probably doesn’t matter to Mr. Bruce, since he has proven he is NOT an investigative reporter, but rather an advertising hack. The problem was patently NOT lawsuits: try greed, ego, as well as ambivalence and incompetence.

There is a GREAT story here if only a real reporter will spend some time, look dilligently, and dig into this topic. Anybody from the Washington Post reading this????

“A full SCAR-compliant version of XM8, we were told, was ready for submission to USSOCOM. But it was barred at the last minute because it was a “government-sponsored entry.”

Wonder if he really means that quickly cobbled together afterthought--an inherently flawed XM8 with the slapped on Pic rails replacing the ill thought P-CAPS?

xm8scar.jpg


While the Pic version of XM8 could have been considered for SCAR-L (although given its problems, it would not have fared well), how about the fact that SCAR required light and heavy variants…woops, sorry--that is a no go as there is NO version of the HK XM8 suitable for SCAR-H. On the other hand the 416 meets SCAR-L while 417 meets SCAR-H. Experienced folks then at HK, as well as the intended end users ALL wanted HK to submit the 416 for SCAR; it was some people higher up the military, corporate, and bureaucratic food chain who were pushing the XM8 and prevented the 416 from being submitted for SCAR. If HK was smart, they would have listened to their own in house experts, ignored the whims of senior folks more interested in ego than doing what is right, and fully supported the 416; but then as noted, HK’s engineering prowess does not extend to it’s business practices and U.S. military small arms procurement is most often flawed. Inquiring minds want to know…

Sean Naylor or any of you dirt digging Army Times reporters--you guys reading this?? Do you guys need a new book idea?

“So, if PMSW’s HK-built XM8 SCAR emerged on top, a crippling lawsuit alleging favoritism was all but inevitable.”

That is an asinine statement; the only crippling lawsuit on the horizon would likely have been about the Infantry Center trying to spin off the XM8 component of the abortive and bloated XM29 OICW and trying to ram it down the military’s throat as the M16/M4/Mk12/Mk18 rifle replacement without an appropriate open and competitive trials for a new RIFLE.

“…the lawsuit and related court orders kept HK’s 416 out of the running for SCAR.”

Lawsuit….hmmm….don’t think so…look at the dates of SCAR, the Colt lawsuit regarding the “M4” name, etc… Colt sued over the use of the “M4” name, maybe someone in HK legal should have reviewed the relevant trademark law. Just call it another name and there is no problem. Nope, no lawsuit prevented HK from submitting the 416 for SCAR. Perhaps the aforementioned greed, ego, ambivalence, and incompetence. But not any lawsuit. On the other hand, maybe none of the command, corporate, or bureaucratic types wanted to upset the XM8 apple cart and reveal how much better and more cost effective the 416 is compared to the weak sister XM8...

“For Jim Schatz and many other long-time HK reps, the bottom line isn’t money; it’s men whose lives are on the line.”

Ya right...then why didn’t HK persevere and submit the 416 for SCAR when asked by multiple HSLD folks, “men whose lives are on the line”???? Where there is a will there is a way…. Why was the XM8 continually pushed, even though it had multiple known problems, especially compared to the 416???

HK has a long history of making technically sound engineering decisions, but completely missing multiple sales opportunities. HK makes money inspite of itself, not because it makes good business decisions. For example, if HK opened a U.S. manufacturing facility and started producing HK416’s, then made them available to all firearms markets, including state and local LE, as well as commercial civilian sales--not just limiting it to mil and fed, it would be like HK owning their own goldmine. Remember the HK416/417 uppers are NOT firearms--no paperwork, no hassles. For that matter, the 416 is technically not a new weapons system requiring trials for the military, as it is only a replacement part since it utilizes the M16/M4 lower receivers (the part that is a serial numbered firearm) we already have in inventory and have already paid for. The HK416 makes a lot of sense for short barreled upper--either on its own or as a transitional system until enough Mk16/FN SCAR-L’s are available.

The less said about the SA80 disaster the better. Oh, and the author made another blunder, he raved about the USP compact being a good choice for the JSP, but never mentioned the HK45 which is a far better choice for the JSP program.

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I have had the opportunity to work a bit with Larry Vickers over the years; his word is beyond reproach--you can take what he says 100% to the bank. While he did work for HK, he is no longer in industry full-time. His loyalty is to our country, not a corporation.

RustedAce, no contractors are using the HK416 at this point. I know “###X” and others in his active duty U.S. military organization and they, along with several other units are indeed using the HK416 in combat to good effect. The HK416 10.5” offers superior reliability to the Mk18 10.5” CQB-R it is replacing--this is a verified fact, as documented in both the Yuma Proving Ground testing in the Fall of 2003 and in the AAR’s coming back from OCONUS this past year. We could also discuss the documented failures of the short barrel 7.62 x 51 mm KAC SR25K Battlerifles and how that directly influenced the need for improved 7.62 mm carbines like the HK 417 and FN Mk17 SCAR-H, as well as the increased desirability of Mk14's.

The 416 is not being tested a few here and there--it has been issued by the hundreds and is in service, in combat and has proven to offer superior reliability compared to the Mk18 and M4.

“Regarding Mr. Vickers, he has stated on many occasions that the S&B Short Dot is by far the best sight out there, and yet Pat Rogers feels just the same about his Aimpoint. With all due respect to the aforementioned individuals, opinions are like...”

CitySlicker, actually, the opinions of LAV and PAR on optics are exactly the same: at this time, BOTH gentlemen state that based on their considerable experience the Aimpoint is the preferred red-dot sight and that the S&B 1.1-4x Short dot is the best variable magnification optic for carbines.

“You produce a picture of 2-3 operators armed with H&K 416's and yet RustedAce had confirmed that the CAG operators he interacted with were equipped with standard M4's. I think I'll take RustedAce's word for it, considering he's actually in Iraq and you...well... you get the picture Mr. Keyboard Commando. Why aren't the rest of the operators (namely the ones that RustedAce witnessed) armed with H&K 416's? And lastly, so the #### what if CAG is armed with H&K 416's? The FBI's elite HRT (which regularly crosstrains with CAG and DevGRU) has chosen the BHP as their pistol of choice for years now. Does that mean that it's superior to the GLCOK 17/19, SIG P226/P229, H&K USP-9, etc... simply because HRT uses it?”

Uh…CitySlicker, since you are WRONG, you will need to do some apologizing and ass kissing…HRT uses 1911’s and has not used BHP’s for many years, the rest of your comments are equally erroneous.

“(Crank it up to 6.8SPC and larger and things become mroe prominent.) No, you just carry less rounds, and achieve no practical advantage over 80gr .223”

Dave_A, having tested a significant number of .223/5.56 mm projectiles in a variety of different configurations and with weights up to 100 gr, I would have to disagree. In every validated test, 6.8 mm has demonstrated greater terminal performance than 5.56 mm; this is especially apparent when using short barrels.

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I suspect any discussion of the HK416 leads to talk of piston uppers by other manufacturers, such as the LW, because of HK’s incomprehensible and idiotic decision so far to not make the 416 uppers available to markets other than mil and Fed LE--that leads a lot of other folks who are wanting piston uppers for their carbines to look at other options…
Click to expand...

basicload said:
We killed it, thats what happened. Its gone to open bid and is now a joint program.

The chances of that weapon making it over everything else out there is about zero
Click to expand...
 
No.

I am aware of a few things regarding the FN SCAR - but not privy to that...

It is still in prototype test stages and the build 'consortium' is growing....
 
FNMI needs this badly as their M16 contracts are coming to a close.

FN has been in negotiations with LW - taint gonna happen.

XM8 is dead. Lots of gov people with egg on their face after spending $400 million in tax payer money on a lemon. Alot of these people are pushing the 416 to wipe away some egg. Any 416's in service are funded by special unit discretional funds or free of charge. If any trial rifle contracts were in place, the gov would be bombarded with protests by US manufacturers. So yes, after 400 million spent under the direction of gov officials, HK does have some back room political influence as these folks scramble to justify their existence.
 
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