Your thoughts on 303 Epps Improved?

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Sometime prior to 1965, gunsmithing great – Ellwood Epps – decided to make an improved version of the venerable 303 British cartridge. Apparently, he conferred with P.O. Ackley in the course of this development project.

If you compare a 303 Epps Improved fired case to images of improved cartridges – developed by P.O. Ackley – like 250/3000 Improved (Ackley), 257 Improved (Ackley), 303-30 Ackley Improved, 30-06 Improved (Ackley) – from the ‘40s and 50’s – you'll see that there is a lot of commonality in the design philosophy. Specifically, like the Ackley improved cartridges, that came before, Epps adopted an approach of going with nearly-parallel case sides and a steep shoulder, angle leading to a relatively short neck.

eppvs303.JPG.w300h248.jpg


These improvements, of course, led to increased case capacity – meaning that the cartridge could be loaded-up more, without exceeding the pressure limits of the relevant action.

It has been reported that, in his original interactions with Ackley, Epps suggested that he was interested in making these improvements to the 303 British case mostly to extend case life – by reducing case taper. This was based on the suggestion that reduced body taper lessens the rearward pressure effects on the bolt and lugs (bolt thrust). Sharp shoulder angles inhibit forward brass flow, which reduces the need to trim cases as often, whereas unnecessary case taper can lead to case stretching.

Epps’ specific solution was to increase the shoulder angle to 35 degrees from 16. At the same time, he decreased the body taper by over 50 thou.

However, having introduced this design change, Epps quickly found that the improved cartridge could also be loaded up – especially in stronger actions, like the no.4 and the P-14. I understand that the latter is rated for 59,000 PSI.

There is at least one book that provides loading data for both the 303 British and 303 Epps Improved and the author has posted information on his loads, such as the following:

A standard 303 British versus the 303 Epps Improved –
2700 fps versus 2865 fps (approx 5% improvement)
2440 fps versus 2650 fps (approx 8% improvement)

These 303 Win-type results were obtained in a No.4 and the numbers which can be SAFELY obtained in a P-14 are even better. Specifically, the resulting improved cartridge showed a 15 % velocity enhancement over the standard 303 British when fired from the P-14. This is a decent deal since the Epps spec is easy to get along with – since Epps 303 Improved cases are created just by fire-forming standard 303 rounds. My Epps improved chambered custom P-14 holds 1-1.5 inch groups – even when I am fireforming standard 303 reloads (made from 1970’s Chinese X54R scavenged powder an steel core 150 gr projectiles). This is all I've done with the gun so far – since I don't yet have reloading dies for the cartridge.

And yes, all you have to do is ream out your No.4 or P-14 – and there are no reported feeding issues – at least that I have seen.

Everybody knows that the Australians have REALLY taken to wildcat cartridges based on the 303 British round – like no one else. It follows that 303 Epson proved ended-up being a massive hit in Australia; where I would guess there may be ten times as many guns – in this caliber – as you may currently find in Canada. In fact, 303 Epps Improved dies are still sold as a standard die set (not an expensive custom die set) by Australia’s domestic die maker (Simplex).

So, what is the point? Can't you just re-barrel a No.4 to 308 or just shoot a P17? Sure, but Epps clearly liked 303 British – as do others, even now. And IMO, there are better reasons to like 303 Epps now. This is because we all now have the ability to buy CHEAP and good X54R surplus ammo (which was not so in the 60’s). And this stuff can be taken apart and the bullets and powder can be reused to reload 303 Brit – BUT with the need to load down on the powder.

How much handier would it be to just do a 1-to-1 dump of a X54R powder load into a boxer-primed 303 Epps case and to reseat the bullet? You’d end-up with a really nice bolt gun (much nicer than any Mosin!), shooting noncorrosive reworks of ex- X54 rounds. The load data I’ve seen for 303 Epps seems to call for the same powders and bullets as X54 – so I doubt there’d be any issue with the 1-to-1 dump of a X54R powder load thing.

I'm gonna be testing this theory out soon – and will post results here. And yes, I will start with standard 303 British loads and will work up – checking for pressure signs. Thanks in advance for all the gratuitous warnings that I'm sure are coming my way. However, honestly guys, I've been reloading for over 40 years – without incident – and don't really appreciate people whose well-known first instinct is to post some unfounded comment that “you're gonna blow your face off”.

One big caveat here is I wouldn't even dream of trying to load-up 303 Epps with the kind of garbage brass that you get – left over – from firing US commercial 303 British ammo. I’ll be using nothing but top-quality brass.

What are your thoughts about 303 EPS improved? Do you have any experience with this cartridge?
 
Hi. No i don't have any experience with 303 Epps improved. I have played with 35-303 Epps improved. I liked that cartridge, but the gun didn't cycle the round easily. So i returned it to the owner. Now i have a 375-303 to play with. 235 Speer Hotcor, 300 grain cast. Using some 30-40 Krag to get slightly longer overall length, as when you expand the 303 to a virtual straight wall it is shortened somewhat. Manipulated the magazine a little to get it to feed mostly reliable.
 
My thoughts on the 303 Epps is that it made sense 40-50 years ago, not so much today, when you can buy a decent .308 rifle for the same price or less as buying a 303 British rifle and converting it.
 
Even 50 years ago there were alternatives. Projects are undertaken for the sake of doing something out of the ordinary.
As far as just running the improved reamer into the existing chamber goes... It takes care. The pilot won't be engaging the bore initially.
.303 being rimmed, headspace isn't an issue. The headspace of the improved chamber will be the same as the original. A proper rimless improved conversion requires that the barrel be set back a bit, and the chamber reamed using the original GO gauge as if it were a NO GO. You want a slight crush fit when the bolt closes on a factory round.
 
I would agree with Post #4. I have no experience with the 303 Epps Improved - I have 308 Win, 30-06, 308 Norma Magnum, 300 Win Magnum, 300 Weatherby Magnum, 303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 8x57JS, 338 Win Magnum, 9.3x57 and 9.3x62 - never could see what that improved 303 would get me that I did not already have - except about no one else that I know would have one.
 
I owned a P14 chambered 303 Epps for several years. Brass life was good, and
I could approach 30-06 factory velocities with 180 grain bullets [c.2700 fps]

I shot a moose with it, plus a couple of mule deer. Worked just fine. Favorite
bullet was the Sierra 180 grain Pro-Hunter [.311 diameter] Dave.
 
Even 50 years ago there were alternatives. Projects are undertaken for the sake of doing something out of the ordinary.
As far as just running the improved reamer into the existing chamber goes... It takes care. The pilot won't be engaging the bore initially.
.303 being rimmed, headspace isn't an issue. The headspace of the improved chamber will be the same as the original. A proper rimless improved conversion requires that the barrel be set back a bit, and the chamber reamed using the original GO gauge as if it were a NO GO. You want a slight crush fit when the bolt closes on a factory round.

As usual Tiriaq you are right. If you are being practical, I doesn’t make a lot of sense to rechamber an existing gun – unless you goal is to get cheap ammo and great performance from a No.4 or P-14 using the 1:1 dump of X54R surplus ammo that I referred to. If that isn’t a thing, then everybody should just sell their No.4 and buy a cheap and functional Savage 110, in 308.

However, back in the day, I guy who had a No.4 and wanted to hunt moose would be well-served to get Epps to just rechamber his existing gun – rather than sell his No.4, buy something else (with fewer options available, in the ‘60s) and move your scope to the new gun, sight the new gun in, etc. Epps would do this for you for 15 bucks, as shown here:

Screenshot 1965 Epps catalogue.jpg


In fact, most hobbies make no sense – and this certainly is true of reloading. Again, there are practical advantages if you need a type of load that you can’t buy, or if you are out to save money, compared to buying factory. That is the motivator for me.

However, for every reloader motivated by practicality, there are many more who obsess about finding that magic load of pistol powder and cast bullets to get an Okay group – for no real reason other than its own sake. And those reloaders go home after spending yet another day at the range – and their wives think to themselves “what is the point”. If you are one of these reloaders who just HAS to know some arcane detail about your loads – for its own sake (like how much crimp gives you the highest velocity), you could, IMO, just as easily get obsessed about how the inside of your toaster works, or whatever.

Again, my interest is in PRACTICAL reloading and a really like the idea that it looks like I can save myself a pile of work – and cost – by doing component swap between surplus 7.62x54R (that I have) and do so to feed a 303 Epps P-14, that I also already have. And by the way, the custom 303 Epps P-14 that I own was bought by accident – since the seller (who I met at a gun show) didn’t tell me about the cartridge change.

Now that I have it (i.e. my 303 Epps P-14) I’m pretty confident that doing the feeding of it by the 1:1 dump of X54R surplus approach seems to be a practical solution.

On that subject, here is some comparative data that seems to bear-out my belief that loading 303 Epps with 7.62x54R data should work fine. This data comes from different sources and I’m sure that this will cause some to rip their hair out … so be it.

303 Epps versus 7.62x54R.jpg


There is also some other 303 Epps loading data on the web that seems to point to the idea that X54R loading data should be useful to people reloading the 303 Epps. This info is found here LINK
 
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I have a 25-303 Improved that I put together back in the early 70s, P14 action with a Timney trigger, a very accurate gun with 120s and 100s, custom stock with a new Bushnell 3x9 Scopechief , Barrel came from Epps in Orillia ontario, Took down 3 deer with it on Van Island and has not been shot since. Lookin to sell if anybody interested as I don't hunt anymore [age 80 in May]. Lots of brass and loaded rds.
 
In case anyone is interested in a .303EI project, it might be an idea to list gunsmiths who have the reamer, and sample prices for what the charge would be to rechamber a rifle.
Rechambering would probably involve removal of the barrel, machining and reinstallation. If a reamer is not available, and one has to be ordered, the cost would go through the roof.
The subject rifle should have a fine bore, of course.
How many No. 4 or P'14 sporters have enough fundamental quality to warrant the expenditure involved?

Surplus 7.62x54R ammunition currently costs perhaps 60 cents a shot. Loading .303 ammunition with the salvaged powder and projectile would require a large rifle primer. 15 or 20 cents these days? So, you'd have ball ammunition suitable for recreational target shooting for 75 or 80 cents a shot. Price would jump fast if a good hunting bullet were needed.
 
Some thoughts:

No deer or moose could tell the difference between a regular and an Improved.

I would consider it in a P14, but not a LE.

If the barrel had to come off, I would be more inclined to run a 7.62x54 reamer into it.
 
While the 303 Epps looks nice, and does indeed produce somewhat higher velocity, it is a very big disappointment in the Lee Enfield rifles, including the #4.

You will be very lucky if you can get three rounds to feed properly from the magazine. More than likely two with some effort.

I have had several, and all had the same problem.

Ted
 
I don't know many people left alive that knew Elwood Epps.

He loved to tinker with firearms and was quite an accomplished, self trained gunsmith.

His funds were often limited and as such he chose Lee Enfield type rifles to work on for the most part. He liked Mausers as well but they were pricier.

When I first met him, he went on and on about the Lee Enfield actions and the Pattern 14-17 actions. He really loved the No4.

He told me about his first attempts to machine reamers and decided to have his shop reamers made by a custom manufacturer. That doesn't mean he didn't continue to make his own though, for his personal jobs.

He loved to "improve the actions by removing the butt socket and modifying the trigger guards accordingly.

In his opinion, there really wasn't much difference between the accuracy capabilities of the No4 MkI action and the No4 MkII action with the hung trigger.

He liked both of them.

His eyes would really light up when he got talking about "improved" cartridges and he communicated a lot with Parker Ackley in Utah about the subject.

Parker Ackley wasn't overyly interested in doing any work on a "Rimmed" case that was of US origin, such as the 30-40 Krag.

The one thing they both agreed on though was that the neck should never be shorter than one calibre in length and this was reflected in Mr Epps' case designs.

He tried very hard to get bullet manufacturers like CIL to make bullets with heavier jackets for the velocities that could be achieved with his designs. Of course, there wasn't enough demand to make such things commercially viable.

Mr Epps had a fellow from Saskatchewan that was making bullets for him in .312 diameter and 200 grain weight, with flat bases and spire points out of Type L hard copper tubing.

He wrote several articles for US and Canadian firearms magazines and even got honorable mention in Frank DeHaas Bolt Action Rifles, 1971 Revised edition.

Mr Epps was already retired by then.

Mr Epps was not only good with metal, he was an excellent stock carver.

He had way more patience for such things than I do.
 
I knew Elwood, and my wife and I hunted moose with him and Isabelle out of Metatchewan way back in the 60s.

He used a very nice 303 Epps Canadian Magnum. It was a P14 rechambered with 308 Norma Mag reamer that had the throat recut using a standard 303 British reamer. He certainly was resourceful, and always experimenting.

Isabelle had a gorgeous 7X57 that he had crafted for her on a small ring Mauser, and she could shoot it!

Wonder where those rifles are today?

Ted
 
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Some thoughts:

No deer or moose could tell the difference between a regular and an Improved.

I would consider it in a P14, but not a LE.

If the barrel had to come off, I would be more inclined to run a 7.62x54 reamer into it.

I actually bought the P-14 in question to do the trick that you are referring to - involving running a 7.62x54R reamer into the chamber - to end up with a chamber with those odd two shoulders.

However once I found the gun was already rechambered for 303 Epps that was the end of that idea. However, the way things turned-out was actually better because my goal was to have a fun to shoot gun that could let me shoot affordable Chinese X54R surplus with little or no elaborate reloading. The job of doing a quick 1:1 dump of ex X54R powder and reseating of a projectile into another boxer primed case isn't elaborate reloading in my books. It takes seconds and you end- up with a cheap non-corrosive round with near 30-06 ballistics.

Obviously, the fact that the gun unexpectedly needed no modifications to meet my goals was a nice surprise. Also, the rechambering to 7.62x54R trick unfortunately creates a "theoretical" safety issue - because some future person could stick a 303 British round in the chamber, fire the gun and end-up with a split case. Shooting 303 British in a 303 Epps gun doesn't create a risk.

Here is an interesting thought. The P-13 was a pretty sound rifle, but was dogged by the fact that they couldn't sort out the hot ammo - which was nothing special by today's standards but was a bit ahead of the technologies of the time. Maybe they just reached too far in terms of their development goals. Maybe some evolutionary improvement on the existing 303 cartridge would have made sense - like adopting a P-13 chambered in a version of 303 Epps - loaded with with some 1913-era non-cordite smokeless powder. Obviously, this would have provided a measure of backward compatibility (allowing inventories of existing 303 ball to be used in the new guns - say in training and for use in less demanding applications).
 
When there were lots of P14 rifles around for cheap,.and you were a gunnut before it was cool.

The 303 is pretty close to 308, ballistically. Just check sources. While the 303 case is bigger, and typical "improved" add 5-10%, I would not shoot the improved case or stout handloads in a Lee Enfield. The P14, that's a different animal. Since 308 started about 1955, metallurgy in modern actions would usually allow stout handloads. So a wash, but availability of bullets and rifles favors 308.
 
If a P'14 in 7.62x54R is desired, the barrel could be set back and the chamber cut for the cartridge. No way a .303 is going to chamber then.
No idea how the magazine would respond.
 
I knew Elwood, and my wife and I hunted moose with him and Isabelle out of Metatchewan way back in the 60s.

He used a very nice 303 Epps Canadian Magnum. It was a P17 rechambered with 308 Norma Mag reamer that had the throat recut using a standard 303 British reamer. He certainly was resourceful, and always experimenting.

Isabelle had a gorgeous 7X57 that he had crafted for her on a small ring Mauser, and she could shoot it!

Wonder where those rifles are today?

Ted

That would be the couple I knew.

He told me about a hunt he and Isabelle went on with Jim Carmichael and his wife Eleanor, who was a huge fan of the 7x57 Mauser cartridge and shot it from a custom Model 95 Mauser, which I believe was later replaced in Carmichael's columns with a Winchester.

He like the Carmichaels and they stayed friends for decades.
 
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When there were lots of P14 rifles around for cheap,.and you were a gunnut before it was cool.

The 303 is pretty close to 308, ballistically. Just check sources. While the 303 case is bigger, and typical "improved" add 5-10%, I would not shoot the improved case or stout handloads in a Lee Enfield. The P14, that's a different animal. Since 308 started about 1955, metallurgy in modern actions would usually allow stout handloads. So a wash, but availability of bullets and rifles favors 308.

Many people using those old reamers have them slightly modified by regrinding the neck diameter to accomodate 308 diameter bullets and provide consistant neck tension, then use a 308 diameter bored barrel.

No4 rifles with tight chambers will handle the extra powder capacity and deliver quite a bit of extra velocity, without generating excessive pressures. Epps wanted to use existing rifles/barrels as much as possible when he built those rifles.

I remember him purchasing 100, in the white, replacement surplus No1 barrels and 100 surplus No4 barrels at scrap metal prices, then inspecting the bores and slugging the bores to get those with median or median -.001 dimensions to get the best ones.

He sold off the rest or used some of them for making other bits.

Elwood's theory was to allow for enough case capacity to increase velocities with some of the mid range powders available at the time, such as Hi Vel 2, which was made by Hercules and replaced with 3031 by IMR. He also wanted to be able to get enough #4831 (WWII slow lot 4350) powder into the cases so that he could get better velocities from heavy 180-220 grain bullets.

Remember, back in the day, we didn't have the ''wonder bullets'' being manufactured today and as such we needed heavy for diameter bullets to get sufficient penetration before the jackets separated from the lead cores, which weren't bonded and often exposed at the base.

Elwood knew the limitations of the Lee Enfield types and cautioned everyone he could about using appropriate powders for the job.
 
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That would be the couple I knew.

He told me about a hunt he and Isabelle went on with Jim Carmichael and his wife Eleanor, who was a huge fan of the 7x57 Mauser cartridge and shot it from a custom Model 95 Mauser, which I believe was later replaced in Carmichael's columns with a Winchester.

He like the Carmichaels and they stayed friends for decades.

I think you may have the Carmichael’s confused with the O’Connors, Jack and Eleanor. Jack was the shooting editor for Outdoor Life, and when he retired in the early 70’s, Jim Carmichael replaced him.
 
Snip

I remember him purchasing 100, in the white, replacement surplus No1 barrels and 100 surplus No4 barrels at scrap metal prices, then inspecting the bores and slugging the bores to get those with median or median -.001 dimensions to get the best ones.

He sold off the rest or used some of them for making other bits.

I'm pretty interested in the comment that EE slugged 200 barrels and kept and used the ones that had been established to have "median to median -1 bores". My guess is that what this means is that he established groups of barrels like .310, .311, .312, .313, .314, .315 and .316. Median means "the a numeric value that separates the higher half of a set from the lower half". In this example, the median would be .313 regardless of the actual number of barrels in any of the size groups. Accordingly, my interpretation is that he would (in this example) be keeping the barrels that fell into the .313 and .312 (i.e., median-1) groups. Is that what is meant here?
 
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