Youth guns: short barrel and short LOP

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G.Mitchell

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Hi folks, my kids are getting interested in hunting and shooting.

I’d like to source a few shotguns for them. I’m looking for inexpensive guns to learn on, preferably single shot break action.

I’d like to find a .410 and 20ga with lop of 10”-11” for starters plus a barrel length under 18” if possible.

What are out there for short/adjustable LOP with short barrel shotguns?

Thanks
 
When my kids were young, I bought them a 20 ga NEF SB1 Pardner Youth. The LOP may not have been quite that short, and the barrel was 22" (stock). It was perfect for young folk (my kids were 10 and 12 at the time) in almost every way, except one - it was too light to absorb the recoil even from light target loads.

My daughter is the eldest - she went on to work at a shooting range and shoot International Trap. The recoil was too much for my son who was 10 at the time. He got turned off by that and has never shot anything since.

For kids, you need:

  • a gun light enough for them to point and shoot
  • a gun that fits them (you obviously thought of this)
  • a gun that doesn't have a second shot (you covered that with the single shot)
  • super light loads (so the gun will absorb enough of the recoil)

The super light loads is the hard part to source. I've never seen anything in 20 ga that would be light enough. I don't know enough about .410 shell availability to comment on that. If a light enough load can't be found, adding weight to the butt stock will work as well. Since the weight of the buttstock is held close to the body, kids can manage extra weight near the butt plate, whereas additional weight further forward makes the gun difficult to accelerate and decelerate, reducing their shooting successes and taking the fun out of it.
 
Thank you for your reply.

That’s what I’ve been thinking as well.

If I could find reduce loads for the 20ga or .410 that’d help.

My kids range from 12 down to 7 months. It’s my 12 year old and 9 year old interested at the moment.

We can hunt grouse with a rifle so that might be where I start them off. 22lr is far milder to shoot and to learn on.
 
Yeah, the recoil on a .22 doesn't even compare to a shotgun. Now that you mention it, I bet a huge majority of people who go on to enjoy shooting sports used a .22 for their first experience. That's a great place to start, especially with younger kids. On top of the reduced recoil, it's far easier to hit a gopher or a grouse with a .22 than it is a clay target with a shotgun. Early success is critical when introducing anyone to any new sport. I think you hit a bullseye with that thought!
 
Skip the 410. They are a miserable gun to learn on when using small game as targets, especially with a shorter barrel. No better way to scare a kid off hunting then wounding more animals then outright killing them.

20g with light loads is the way to go. A #7.5 target load is fairly light recoil.

Or the aforementioned 22LR.

I have a TC Hot Shot I bought for my daughter. Put a red dot on it. Its a fun little gun. It has a stock spacer to adjust size so that I can shoot it when she is not. My wife is petite and has a 20g Remington 870 youth. My daughter will learn wing shooting with that.

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Thank you both.

I used a .410 very successfully as a kid which is why I was leaning that way for my kids.

That said growing up in NB I couldn’t hunt birds with a rifle.

Since moving to AB I’ve done very well using a 22lr for birds too.

I do have a few old .410 shotguns here but they’ve got 26” or longer barrels. Might cut the stock down on one of them for my kids.

I think I’ll focus on the .22lr for now and start them on shotguns as they’re older and ready.
 
I went with a Mossberg Bantam .410 pump for my son. The Mini Bantam has an even shorter stock with an 18" barrel- stock can be extended to accommodate growth. Magazine plug is a 1/4" dowel, you could cut an even longer one that will effectively render the magazine useless- when you feel your offspring's ready you can shorten it to give a magazine capacity that works for you.

The .410 cartridge has its limitations, but it is a very mild recoiling affair and while it wouldn't be my first choice for driven pheasant in Devon or Yorkshire it performs adequately inside 20-25 yards.
 
Windknot said:
I went with a Mossberg Bantam .410 pump for my son. The Mini Bantam has an even shorter stock with an 18" barrel- stock can be extended to accommodate growth. Magazine plug is a 1/4" dowel, you could cut an even longer one that will effectively render the magazine useless- when you feel your offspring's ready you can shorten it to give a magazine capacity that works for you.

The .410 cartridge has its limitations, but it is a very mild recoiling affair and while it wouldn't be my first choice for driven pheasant in Devon or Yorkshire it performs adequately inside 20-25 yards.
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It depends on the gun, and if if the barrel is shorter there's an even larger chance it will not be adequate to that distance.

I've owned a few 410s over the years. The worst could not reliably break a stationary clay at 15 yards. It was a serial bird wounder. I got rid of it after watching too many grouse fly off leaving me literally with feathers. Full length barrel (26 or 28") and supposedly a full choke, although I doubt that.
 
If you go the route of a 20 gauge, then recommend for new lightweight shooters the Winchester AA low noise and low recoil. 7/8th of an ounce #8's at subsonic speed.
 
blasted_saber said:
It depends on the gun, and if if the barrel is shorter there's an even larger chance it will not be adequate to that distance.

I've owned a few 410s over the years. The worst could not reliably break a stationary clay at 15 yards. It was a serial bird wounder. I got rid of it after watching too many grouse fly off leaving me literally with feathers. Full length barrel (26 or 28") and supposedly a full choke, although I doubt that.
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You'd need a pattern plate and a chronograph to find out what's up with that gun. A buddy had a 12" .410 Backpacker, and it lost less velocity than you'd think. He got rid of that one because the muzzle blast was obnoxious and it shot way high, but it patterns were dense enough for what it was, and it probably only gave up 5-7 yards to a 24-28" barrelled gun in term of velocity.
 
Londonshooter said:
If you go the route of a 20 gauge, then recommend for new lightweight shooters the Winchester AA low noise and low recoil. 7/8th of an ounce #8's at subsonic speed.
Click to expand...

Agree if you go 20 gauge. That being said, I learned to shoot on a .410 pump that my dad bought for my 12th birthday. I learned to shoot by starting off with hand thrown clays and I had no trouble on live birds. I took many grouse with that gun and they sure weren't all sitting. I have 2 brothers who also learned on a .410 and one who learned on a 20. Have to say that the 3 of us who learned on the .410 were all better shots than the one who learned on the 20. Still are, lol!
 
My daughter has just recently turned 2 but i plan to start her out with a 9mm flobert then a 22lr and then move up the gauges from 410 to 28 to 20.
A 410 throws less pellets but a pellet fired from a 410 is no different than one fired from a 10ga. I routinely hunt with 7/8oz loads in my 12ga guns. They offer lower recoil than factory shells and the extra weight of the 12ga soak up alot of that recoil. Many of my fellow skeet shooters use 3/4 oz loads in their 12s and their performance is no different than factory 1 1/8oz loads
 
My nine year old daughter loves coming out with dad to press buttons on the sporting clays course. She is getting hooked but the weight is too much for her yet. The more I am reading about the kids getting involved and speaking with a couple of top shooters they suggest a 28ga to start with? With the .410 they can't hit much and the 20ga even with extreme light loads has a good kick which turns some off?
Thoughts on the 28 and what you would suggest? I know I love shooting mine in sub-gauge events but it's way too long for her.
 
Hi!

I have been deep down this rabbit hole with my two daughters, who are now 15 and 13 years old and voluntarily will come to the clay range or bird hunting with dad. Both started on a .410, and in this vein I wholeheartedly recommend the mossberg 510 mini:


Neither one were disadvantaged with it in respect to learning wing-shooting:


Since filming the two shorts above, both girls have had multiple opportunities to upgrade into quality over-undere made by B branded companies, and despite giving it a solid try they hands-down prefer their pump guns. I think mossberg has the best variety in their line of 510/500 youth/bantam guns, and when shooting the 20 gauge I also agree with the win AA low recoil low noise recommendation made by others.

I tried one last time this year to set my girls up with over unders, but they are steadfast in their enjoyment of their pumps. What’s a dad to do? Rather than argue with them, they both got wingmaster this year.

Best days of my life,

Brobee
 
G.Mitchell said:
We can hunt grouse with a rifle so that might be where I start them off. 22lr is far milder to shoot and to learn on.
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Your idea here is AWESOME - both my girls favourite guns are their .22lr. In my experience, the Savage rascal is the hands-down winner for best gun to introduce a small child to shooting. From there, I upgraded my girls to cz 455 camp/scouts which they still shoot today on our steel silhouette woodland rimfire challenge. If you decide to go the cz route for your older kids, Prophet River currently has a good selection of the 455 scouts.

Cheers,

Brobee
 
Thanks again all,

I’d debated a 14” .410 Mossberg with their adjustable LOP stock setup but that gets costly and the 14” barrel really limits it.

I think I’ll stick with a 10/22 with red dot. I’ve setup a light and collapsible 10/22 that most of my kids can handle.

Since we can shoot grouse with a .22 that’ll be where we start.

Thanks again all. I appreciate the feedback and suggestions.
 
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