Is it legal to own a .458 socom

[cr5]

I so want a .458 Socom but it is so hard to find ammo

Contact Tier One Armoury in Edmonton, they have all the high end fancy 300BLK ammo in stock and would probably order you whatever cartridge you asked for.

It's a caliber I've always wanted and with a lot of wild hog living in Saskatchewan I want a gun that will definitely stop them.

If it's just for pigs 300BLK is plenty with the right bullets, they use it a lot in the US. Just search youtube for the vids of them using it from helicopters and at night with nightvision scopes.

 

[Brutus]

Which Armalite platform is non restricted for hunting and adaptable to many calibers?

I brought that point up earlier and was promptly ignored. Either they hunt in the USA or they are..............you know! lol

 

[cr5]

With only a smaller selection of bullets. Once you leave 325 grain behind you cannot compare the two.

Why would you need to go heavier than 325 grain for deer hunting?
I would think some of the 250-300 grain Hornady XTP-mag bullets would be plenty for a deer. Then there are cast bullets available which will do a fine job just like the cast bullets people use in the 45/70. When I load for my 45/70 the heaviest jacketed bullet I use is a 325 grain FTX bullet and anything heavier is a 405 grain hard cast pill.
There may be more choices for the .458 diameter but there are plenty of bullets available in .452 that are up to the job as well.

I would go with whichever is easier to get components for or for non hand loaders, whichever is easier to find factory loads for.

 

[cr5]

Well I'm gonna be giving Herron a call very soon lol. Which caliber out of all those listed for the ACR would be best for deer? As in I don't hand load right now, so factory rounds would need to be available. Thanks

There are no calibers "listed" or available for the ACR from the factory. You need to have a conversion custom built. The 300BLK is the cheapest and easiest and the rest are all expensive and require you to modify the bolt which means ordering parts if you ever want to shoot 223 again. You may as well throw out the factory 16 inch barrel as well because once you have it verified and make it non restricted if you try to put the 16 inch back on you are now in possession of an unregistered restricted firearm, if you shoot it before re-registering it you could face serious criminal charges.

 

[cr5]

If all you want to do is hunt deer and pigs with your rifle then the best option is probably to buy yourself an XCR-L in 6.8SPC.
If you want to be able to hunt elk and moose then buy an XCR-M.

Any other options currently available are going to cost you a lot more money.

 

[Brutus]

Why would you need to go heavier than 325 grain for deer hunting?
I would think some of the 250-300 grain Hornady XTP-mag bullets would be plenty for a deer. Then there are cast bullets available which will do a fine job just like the cast bullets people use in the 45/70. When I load for my 45/70 the heaviest jacketed bullet I use is a 325 grain FTX bullet and anything heavier is a 405 grain hard cast pill.
There may be more choices for the .458 diameter but there are plenty of bullets available in .452 that are up to the job as well.

I would go with whichever is easier to get components for or for non hand loaders, whichever is easier to find factory loads for.

Why would a Canadian citizen plan on using any restricted AR platform for hunting????

 

[Brian46]

The 450 Bushmaster sounds pretty boss until you look at the bullet diameter and jacket spec's compared to any other rifle that takes a .458 rifle bullet.
The Bushmaster actually is more of a pistol cartridge with just more juice. The 458 SOCOM feeds more abundant rifle bullets (Much like the 45-70) from the get go.
Come on now, you cannot even come close to comparing the more numerous .458 versus .451 bullet choices.

my two bits only

I see remington is now offering 275gr Barnes TSX bullets in their Hog Hammer line for the 450 Bushmaster

 

[cr5]

Why would a Canadian citizen plan on using any restricted AR platform for hunting????

You can convert non restricted rifles into other calibers. My ACR for example is now non restricted and I have a 300 Blackout conversion I built for it. I have a buddy that did the same but built a 450 Bushmaster conversion for his and Brian46 just got his ACR back from Herron Arms with a 450 Bushmaster conversion.

I can only dream of the day when we can use an AR platform for hunting but in the meantime there are options if you're willing to pay for them.
I plan to take a deer with my 300BLK this fall

 

[andrew3081]

You're right, it's better.

Ar15 is better than ACR in every way if we are talking about the restricted version of ACR.
ACR is good for caliber convention, but Bushmaster do not make any conversion kits (need to make your own).

 

[cr5]

Ar15 is better than ACR in every way if we are talking about the restricted version of ACR.
ACR is good for caliber convention, but Bushmaster do not make any conversion kits (need to make your own).

I'm not so sure about that, the AR definitely has the advantage when it comes to parts and accessories availability but once Bushmaster catches up to demand and can get back on track and get some parts out then the ACR is going to be a heck of a rifle. It's not only the quick change barrel that it's good for. It's a completely modular platform which can be configured in any way without tools in almost no time. We just need some parts support. I can not only change calibers in less than a minute but I can take everything including the trigger group out of the rifle in around a minute. It's silly now since there is nothing to change, just take it apart and put it back together but hopefully some day that will change. I've gone and built my own 300 Blackout conversion and it's working great and I have a 6.8SPC conversion I will get back to working on this winter.
I love my AR's (have 5) but the ACR takes a lot of the best things about the AR and improves on them. Fully ambi safety, mag release, and bolt lock/release. Same great ergo's, similar accuracy, similar optics mounting options.
The biggest advantage the AR has is that it is being produced by so many manufacturers and there are even more companies making accessories. The ACR will never have that kind of support. For me though, the ACR is pretty much built the way I want it, I don't feel the need to change out a bunch of accessories and for me the best thing is the easy barrel change. The AR is also great for that in that you just need to build another upper and it's a 20 second job to swap.
Every platform is a compromise in some way though so the best thing we can do is try to own them all

 

[superbad]

Ive dertrd a 750 pound one with 300 blackout 150 gr jamison and the record down in alabama is 1051 pounds with a 500 sw handgun i was 80 yards away , clean kill. Ive seen thrm taken down with 75 gr 5.56 as well.

 

[Iceblood]

I like the ACR - thought I'd mention that - but it would be nice to have the discussion as to how you find the ACR platform and design better than the AR platform and design.

Ok here we go, another AR-15 pissing match. The AR-15 is a rifle that is accurate and ergonomically superior to most sporting rifles. They generally hit what they're aimed at and the safety and mag release are in the right places. Aftermarket bolt catches together with straight-insertion magazine design make reloads very fast. It is lighter than most other offerings; and due to it's popularity it is easy to customize and find replacement parts. You can eve change calibers if you buy a new upper receiver.

BUT: AR-15's can not take a lot of physical abuse or neglect. Usually this does not matter, but when in the field for a long time these shortcomings are a right pain in the arse. They're not exactly brittle, but accidents involving helicopters/light vehicles, long falls can easily break them. They cannot be used as any other sort of tool without considerable risk. A lot of this is true of other rifles as well and none of this matters if you're at the range anyways. Just don't drop it or hit it with a truck I guess.

The AR-15 action doesn't use a piston, it just pushes gas against to top of the bolt carrier. That means hot gas, carbon, and all types of SH1T get blown back into crucial working parts of the action. That's part of why they're not as reliable as some. Don't believe me? The forward assist is proof that some engineer said "hmm, this doesn't always go into battery properly; let's have the operator give it a smack". If you're going to be putting more than 2 or 3 hundred rounds through an AR without cleaning it, expect stoppages with increasing frequency. I put about 700 rounds through an SKS in one day without so much as a drop of lube and had 4 stoppages, all in the last fifty rounds.

So there you go, a discussion on the finer points of using an AR-15/C7. Rant off.

 

[andrew3081]

I'm not so sure about that, the AR definitely has the advantage when it comes to parts and accessories availability but once Bushmaster catches up to demand and can get back on track and get some parts out then the ACR is going to be a heck of a rifle. It's not only the quick change barrel that it's good for. It's a completely modular platform which can be configured in any way without tools in almost no time. We just need some parts support. I can not only change calibers in less than a minute but I can take everything including the trigger group out of the rifle in around a minute. It's silly now since there is nothing to change, just take it apart and put it back together but hopefully some day that will change. I've gone and built my own 300 Blackout conversion and it's working great and I have a 6.8SPC conversion I will get back to working on this winter.
I love my AR's (have 5) but the ACR takes a lot of the best things about the AR and improves on them. Fully ambi safety, mag release, and bolt lock/release. Same great ergo's, similar accuracy, similar optics mounting options.
The biggest advantage the AR has is that it is being produced by so many manufacturers and there are even more companies making accessories. The ACR will never have that kind of support. For me though, the ACR is pretty much built the way I want it, I don't feel the need to change out a bunch of accessories and for me the best thing is the easy barrel change. The AR is also great for that in that you just need to build another upper and it's a 20 second job to swap.
Every platform is a compromise in some way though so the best thing we can do is try to own them all

So the ACR is better when it comes to changing caliber and taking apart the firearm?
Ar15 has more part support, more different configurations, weight less than ACR, cost a lot less to buy and the list goes on..

All that can be put on an Ar15 as well.
ACR is a neat rifle, but the lack of support from Bushmaster is a big killer.

 

[superbad]

300 black out barrel is $180 and a box of ammo $24

 

[Mark-II]

I've never seen 450 bushmaster brass for sale. Meanwhile I've picked up some 458 from doubletap and Questar can get RRA uppers in. That's my own reasoning for planning to go the socom route.

I've also read that the 450 requires a different or at least a modified mag. Is this true or do guys run them through regular 5.56 xcr or Beowulf mags?

 

[Brian46]

I've never seen 450 bushmaster brass for sale. Meanwhile I've picked up some 458 from doubletap and Questar can get RRA uppers in. That's my own reasoning for planning to go the socom route.

I've also read that the 450 requires a different or at least a modified mag. Is this true or do guys run them through regular 5.56 xcr or Beowulf mags?

the hornady distriburtor in canada has new primed 450 bushmaster brass in stock

 

[cr5]

So the ACR is better when it comes to changing caliber and taking apart the firearm?
Ar15 has more part support, more different configurations, weight less than ACR, cost a lot less to buy and the list goes on..

All that can be put on an Ar15 as well.
ACR is a neat rifle, but the lack of support from Bushmaster is a big killer.

I think that's what I said. The ACR comes apart much like an AR but you can go much further without tools.
AR weighs less? Yup, but who cares? Not me, I can haul it around on a sling all day and I can stand and shoot freehand with it. The rifle may be heavier than an AR but it isn't unmanageable.
Adding aftermarket bolt and mag release isn't as good as having it engineered into the rifle from the beginning. I have Phase 5 enhanced bolt catch/release on 3 of my AR's and while it does make it better it isn't as good as the ACR system.
Also if you compare a higher end AR to the ACR the price difference isn't that much. I have 2 AR's that cost me around $2000 and my used ACR was $2200 with a Geissele trigger.
Bushmaster is still playing catch-up after the buying boom the US went through, once they catch up to their demand the ACR parts support should come around. Parts are available for it but you need to order and wait for them to show up which can take a while. The ACR will never have the support the AR does but as long as we will be able to but things without a 6 month wait that's good enough for me. There really isn't much on the rifle that I can picture breaking unless it is abused.

300 black out barrel is $180 and a box of ammo $24

What's your point? This isn't a cheap hobby and if you want something different it's going to cost you something.
300BLK barrel is the same price as a 223/5.56 barrel and I've bought 300BLK factory rounds for $16/box, and I can reload 300BLK for almost the same cost as 223.

I personally don't see much point in converting an AR into these other calibers since you are just increasing your cost to shoot just to punch paper and gongs at the range. I have 2 300BLK AR's because I'm a reloader and I can easily make my 300BLK brass from 223 brass which I happen to have a lot of. I also have my ACR converted to non restricted and made my own 300BLK conversion for it and it has become my most used rifle in the collection. It does everything I need it to do including using it for deer hunting now that I have it cycling perfectly and shooting sub moa with my handloads.

Switching a rifle over to one of these calibers is a choice everyone has to make for themselves. For some it's just not worth it or it's too expensive but for others it gives them something unique and until you shoot one you really don't understand how fun it is to up the energy on an AR. Hitting the gongs is more fun when the impact sends it swinging like the 223 never could and if you can use it for hunting then the increased energy helps ensure an ethical kill which makes using your black rifle for hunting much more fun and more readily acceptable by the more traditional hunters out there.

Don't knock it till you try it.

 

[BenL]

Ok here we go, another AR-15 pissing match. The AR-15 is a rifle that is accurate and ergonomically superior to most sporting rifles. They generally hit what they're aimed at and the safety and mag release are in the right places. Aftermarket bolt catches together with straight-insertion magazine design make reloads very fast. It is lighter than most other offerings; and due to it's popularity it is easy to customize and find replacement parts. You can eve change calibers if you buy a new upper receiver.

BUT: AR-15's can not take a lot of physical abuse or neglect. Usually this does not matter, but when in the field for a long time these shortcomings are a right pain in the arse. They're not exactly brittle, but accidents involving helicopters/light vehicles, long falls can easily break them. They cannot be used as any other sort of tool without considerable risk. A lot of this is true of other rifles as well and none of this matters if you're at the range anyways. Just don't drop it or hit it with a truck I guess.

The AR-15 action doesn't use a piston, it just pushes gas against to top of the bolt carrier. That means hot gas, carbon, and all types of SH1T get blown back into crucial working parts of the action. That's part of why they're not as reliable as some. Don't believe me? The forward assist is proof that some engineer said "hmm, this doesn't always go into battery properly; let's have the operator give it a smack". If you're going to be putting more than 2 or 3 hundred rounds through an AR without cleaning it, expect stoppages with increasing frequency. I put about 700 rounds through an SKS in one day without so much as a drop of lube and had 4 stoppages, all in the last fifty rounds.

So there you go, a discussion on the finer points of using an AR-15/C7. Rant off.

Bolded and Underscored for the WIN.

Appreciate the good laugh though, honestly.

 

[Brian46]

With only a smaller selection of bullets. Once you leave 325 grain behind you cannot compare the two.

good comparo posted on another forum

http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=577

Off and On, I am inundated with requests for the Relative differences in the various Big Bores. The last two weeks being two of them. With this months sale going on, and with just so many trying to make a decision, I will try to do a decent job. Now, realize that I am prejudice, therefore this thesis should be taken with a grain of Salt, so your help will be necessary. Because I won’t get it entirely right and may forget to add important differences, therefore, add your thoughts. So here goes..

Advantages/Disadvantages
450Bushmaster vs. 458socom


450 Bushmaster: Is a modern High Pressure Rifle Case.
458 socom: Is a pistol case that has not and will not, stand-up to rifle pressures. Ruptured cases are often reported.

450 Bushmaster: Straight Walled Cases, therefore far more Reloading Cycles.
458 socom: Necked Case, therefore stretched necks, case trimming procedures & premature Case Failure, and very expensive to find or replace.

450 Bushmaster: Based on the 284 Winchester & the many 6.5x284 offerings. Re-loadable Case Availability is Ultra High. Depending on the case Manufacturer, we can use either Large or Small Primers. This alone is a Hugh Advantage.
458 socom: Based on the 50AE pistol case. No re-loadable parent case. Availability? Most would say Scarce, to not at all. "Load up on brass when you can find them" is the War-Cry. Starline won't build new brass for the 458s or 50b until they get enough orders for a run, whatever that means. At S.H.O.T., I was told by Starline that the 458/50 runs have been relegated to once a year runs, for some time now, and some years, no Run at all. With the explosion of the 450Bushmaster and its Superior Support, many are crossing over, will this affect availability, time will tell.

450 Bushmaster: Many S.A.A.M.I spec. Factory Loadings and Many More on the way.
458 socom: Wildcat Only. Saami will not spec this out until one of their Client Members steps up to the task. None at this time are even entertaining this event. Cor-Bon is a voting member of Saami and loads for the 458s/50b, the fact that they wont spec-out these cartridges, well, speaks volumes. Is Support Dwindling?

450 Bushmaster: Factory Backing from many Majors, with many others standing in line, with many more coming on yet this year and in the years ahead.
458 socom: No Real Major Factory Backing. Does Rock-River even have more than one Factory Building, they didn't use too, but maybe they do now?

450 Bushmaster: Uses "All" 45cal Bullets .451-.458 @ MidWay alone has 155 in total.
458 socom: Uses .458" bullets "Only" for a total of 51, again @ MidWay.
FYI .500"cal Bullets, 36 total at MidWay & all are designed for pistol speeds and most (not all) will wound/explode on big game, with low penetration at rifle speeds, bullet construction is Critical and are very expensive compared to the 45cal.

450 Bushmaster: Availability; Everywhere, again with Factory and Industry Backing, the future is Assured.
458 socom: Availability; a definite Maybe, and reaching the point of Scarce, same for the 50B.

450 Bushmaster: Cost, are Very Reasonable.
458 socom: Cost twice as much and more, if you can even find any product.

450 Bushmaster: The Big Box Stores always have Guns and Ammo on the Shelves or when out, Next Week’s Shipment is expected to have new stock for the store, meaning, only sporadic and temporary, short term shortages. Hey, the guys are flooding the Stores.
458 socom: The Big Box Stores always have Guns and Ammo on Back Order, again, Availability is a Hugh Problem, and when questioned, they have no idea when New Stock will be forth coming.

450 Bushmaster: Our Future is, Bright, Expansive, and Developing.
458 socom: Their Future is, Questionable for both the .458s & 50b.

And Lastly, yes we can and do use Factory G.I. Magazines. A GI 30 rounder becomes either a 12 or 13 round mag, depending on the Manufacturer. Also, many of 450 Bushmaster "So-CALLED" mere pistol bullets (as some uneducated individuals have called them), make great, cheap, big game bullets, as in Elk, Moose, the Big Bears, Cape Buffalo, or even Elephants, yes two to date, that I know of. Think not, witness the 230gr Military Ball and the Flat Point FMJ's to say nothing of the Absolutely Hugh Plethora of bullets designed for the 460S&W, the 454 Casull, and the various MAGNUM 45cal Black Powder Bullets, all are of the .4515" saami spec. and do not over expand on Big-Game, at our speeds and give Outstanding Superior Penetration! Plus we have the advantage of using the Real Hollow-Pointed Pistol Bullets as very cheap Fragmentation bullets, that won't relatively penetrate anything in the real world and theses are 5 to 10x times and more, cheaper than the Sinter Metal Style, Fragmentation Bullets those other calibers have to use. Anything the 458s can do, we do better and anything the .4515" bullets will do, can-not be done in a 458socom..

Nope, I see no down side to the 450 Bushmaster!! You Make The Call..



OK,

I wanted to be able to send the questioners to read this and your insightful in-put. I am getting so many questions, and most are of the same nature. So, I hope this is not too controversial, for our style of personal respect, but this should keep me from answering the same questions, over and over.

Now, have I forgotten anything or misrepresented the facts? Please add or correct anything I may have messed up or forgotten. Make sure you chime in with any personal incites, suggestions, observations, or opinions. Maybe we can make this a One-Stopping-Shopping experience for the new guys wanting to get into the Big Bore Game and start them on the right path.

Knowledge is Power..t

 

[2bad4u2]

I know it's not semi-auto, however, if you're hunting why not consider a .450 Bushmaster bolt gun conversion? It would be easy to do and a very effective platform. You could have shorter barrel lengths to keep things compact and easy to handle. Might be a win-win proposition if you're open to other alternatives.

Try a Rem 700 and bolt it in a TAC 21 chassis if you want the look and feel of an AR.