Picture of the day

It goes back further than that...

I inherited a weird old sabre bayonet last year, and other than it had "been found in a field in Saskatchewan" no one really knew anything about it. It took a bit of doing to figure out what it was - a bayonet for a Chassepot Rifle. Which I though was a pretty strange thing to end up in the dirt in Saskatchewan - a bayonet for a French rifle that was only in service for 8 years, from 1866-1874 (when it was converted into the Gras rifle, and the bayonet style changed). It was one of those things I couldn't let sit, so I spent a fair bit of time digging into the history of the Chassepot...

Anyway, bear with me a sec, because how it likely ended up in Canada says a lot about military expediency when it comes to captured weapons.

The Chassepot was a paper cartridge, breach loading rifle. In the Franco-Prussian war, it went up against the much better known paper cartridge rifle (due to its much longer service life) Dreyse needle gun. The thing is, the Dreyse was getting pretty long in the tooth by then (it went into service in 1841).

The Chassepot was an order of magnitude better rifle. It had an effective range of 1200meters to the Dreyse 600m, was more accurate, had a 35% higher velocity and a flatter trajectory. Tellingly, the vast majority of Prussian/German casualties during the war were from the Chassepot.

In the end, it didn't matter, because the Prussian/German army had better artillery and much more of it. But their troops quickly saw the benefit of the French rifle and grabbed them whenever they could. In fact, so many were captured after artillery duels (which the Prussians/Germans inevitably won), and the value of the weapon was so obvious, that the Prussian/German forces started collecting them, and issuing them to their own troops. German factories were even producing ammo for them. By the end of the war, over 200,000 of them had been captured and re-issued, entire regiments went into the field with their enemy's rifle in hand.

After the war, the era of the paper cartridge died, as everyone rapidly moved to brass cartridges (the more well known Gras is just a brass cartridge conversion of the paper cartridge Chassepot). The Prussians had no need for all the captured French rifles anymore, so they sold them. To British arms merchants who promptly flooded the colonies with them as a cheap big game rifle - which is undoubtedly how my bayonet found its way to a muddy field in southern Saskatchewan.

With specialized supply chains and manufacturing, and the specific training conducted for modern rifles, it's doubtful we'll ever see that kind of mass adoption of the enemy's rifle, but it can and does happen on smaller scales.
 
i recall reading a soldiers account of the beach evacuation at dunkirk, he had been separated from his rifle by force of a german bomb that should have also separated him from his limbs by all rights, but survived and was desperately trying to find a SMLE to take back with him, he feared the wrath of the sergeant major more than death. he eventually was handed one that had been smashed up quite badly just in time to get on a small pleasure craft that was his ferry home

I've read of rifles being thrown out the windows of trains taking the Dunkirk evacuees inland. MANY seem to have come back without weapons. Many, many weapons and vehicles were abandoned with little or nothing done to render them unservicable. You can see this in hundreds of photos the Germans took of such equipment. The 1st Canadian Division landed in France just in time to re-embark and panicky British embarkation officers told them to destroy all their vehicles before doing so. They refused and took them back to the UK where the 1st Canadians were about the only division in the country with full equipment.
 
@ BOGUSIII:

I have written here extensively on the Ross Rifle, likely to the point that people hate to see my name appear.

Drop by some time and I'll let you try out my nice new M-14.

I have some 7.5x54 ammo here that looks like it should fit.....
 
I've read of rifles being thrown out the windows of trains taking the Dunkirk evacuees inland. MANY seem to have come back without weapons. Many, many weapons and vehicles were abandoned with little or nothing done to render them unservicable. You can see this in hundreds of photos the Germans took of such equipment. The 1st Canadian Division landed in France just in time to re-embark and panicky British embarkation officers told them to destroy all their vehicles before doing so. They refused and took them back to the UK where the 1st Canadians were about the only division in the country with full equipment.

it was later mentioned in the excerpt that there were no charges for lost equipment, and he was the only one still with anything resembling a rifle when the boat let them off.
the germans redesignated bren gun carriers from dunkirk and used them throughout the war, i have a picture someplace of americans capturing one in german markings in normandy
 
Gras 1874/80/14 rifles & bayonets and also Chassepot bayonets (interchangeable with the Gras) were used in large quantities by Québec Papal Zouaves, they were bought on the Surplus market after WW1. The Zouaves were active in most Catholic Parishes, so it makes sense that the bayonet ended up out West and used by a local Church group out there. The Zouaves were active from the 1870's up to the early 1960's.

In Quebec, the Zouave connection is well known. The Quebec Zouaves used many types of rifles over their long history. The most common were the Gras 1871/80/14, the Swiss Vertelli 1869/71, the US Remington Rolling in 50-70 (Most of these assorted rifles were supposed to have been purchased from Bannerman's of New York, a large Surplus dealer active up to the late 1950's.) One of the last local units in Coaticook, QC even used some Lee-Enfield No.1 MKIII* in the early 1960's. A side note, the Gras 1874/80/14 is a fairly rare rifle, since most of the one left in French Service were destroyed during the Nazis Occupation after the French defeat of 1940.

The Quebec Papal Zouaves came to be during the Italian uprising by Garibaldi, the Papal Lands were under attack and two Regiments were raised and were sent over to Italy to defend the Pope from the Revolutionnary Forces. The Regiments were armed with French Army rifle-muskets and participated in a number of Battles. After the War and the return of the Zouave Regiments to Quebec, it was decided that the Zouaves should be maintained across the Province in every Parish in case the Pope needed them again. Naturally, it became more a Social Organisation used mostly in Parade and Religious celebrations. It was for a time a very large organisation with training camps in the Summer, rivaling the Canadian Militia. The mouvement died out in the 1960's, but I know of at least one group still operating in Valleyfield, QC comprised of elderly Gentlemen working as Ushers in the local church at Sunday Services. A small Village near Lac Megantic, QC was founded by some returning Veterans of the Zouaves Regiments and it was named Piopolis (City of the Pope in honour of Pope Pius IX) to celebrate their Service to the Pope in his time of need. In a way, the Zouaves were probably the first 0rganised Canadians Troops to serve in Foreign Overseas War, before that most Canadians served or volontered on an Individual basis (Peninsular Campaign War of 1812 or US Civil War).




Zouave Uniform circa 1940/50, note the Gras bayonet. Chassepot bayonets were also used with the Gras rifles.
 
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Another glorious day in the Armoured Corps:

Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-022-2935-32,_Russland,_rastende_Panzersoldaten.jpg


"Fancy a picnic, Herr Leutnant?"
 
Gras 1874/80/14 rifles & bayonets and also Chassepot bayonets (intergeable with the Gras) were used in large quantities by Québec Papal Zouaves, ..

Thanks for that JP... I'll add it to my collection of info about the Gras/Chassepot in Canada.

One of these days, I want to get a Chassepot to go with the bayonet I have. The concept of rolling my own paper cartridges intrigues me, and breach loading paper cartridge rifles were an important transitional design that seldom gets much airtime in gun history circles.
 
That's very interesting info about the Zouaves JP, but they would be considered a private militia organization, not "organized Canadian troops". The legal ramifications of a private militia, albeit presumably organized by the R.C. Church, are interesting to say the least. A reminder that for a long time Quebec really was a kind of papal state.
 
Thanks for that JP... I'll add it to my collection of info about the Gras/Chassepot in Canada.

One of these days, I want to get a Chassepot to go with the bayonet I have. The concept of rolling my own paper cartridges intrigues me, and breach loading paper cartridge rifles were an important transitional design that seldom gets much airtime in gun history circles.

So was the Chassepot issued to these guys? I, for one, being a rampant Anglo would not like the idea of the French arming the French Canadians in the name of the Pope in the middle of British North America, this must have driven Upper Canada to distraction and scared the British at Quebec Garrison to death. 100s of French rifles in the hands of organized Papists in British North America. If a few drunken Irish from the US could scare us into nationhood........
 
"French arming the French Canadians in the name of the Pope in the middle of British North America"

Rifles were bought on the surplus market by the local units on their own, later Zouaves were closer to a "Free Mason" like organisation rather than an actual military force.
 
Gras 1874/80/14 rifles & bayonets and also Chassepot bayonets (interchangeable with the Gras) were used in large quantities by Québec Papal Zouaves, they were bought on the Surplus market after WW1. The Zouaves were active in most Catholic Parishes, so it makes sense that the bayonet ended up out West and used by a local Church group out there. The Zouaves were active from the 1870's up to the early 1960's.

In Quebec, the Zouave connection is well known. The Quebec Zouaves used many types of rifles over their long history. The most common were the Gras 1871/80/14, the Swiss Vertelli 1869/71, the US Remington Rolling in 50-70 (Most of these assorted rifles were supposed to have been purchased from Bannerman's of New York, a large Surplus dealer active up to the late 1950's.) One of the last local units in Coaticook, QC even used some Lee-Enfield No.1 MKIII* in the early 1960's. A side note, the Gras 1874/80/14 is a fairly rare rifle, since most of the one left in French Service were destroyed during the Nazis Occupation after the French defeat of 1940.

The Quebec Papal Zouaves came to be during the Italian uprising by Garibaldi, the Papal Lands were under attack and two Regiments were raised and were sent over to Italy to defend the Pope from the Revolutionnary Forces. The Regiments were armed with French Army rifle-muskets and participated in a number of Battles. After the War and the return of the Zouave Regiments to Quebec, it was decided that the Zouaves should be maintained across the Province in every Parish in case the Pope needed them again. Naturally, it became more a Social Organisation used mostly in Parade and Religious celebrations. It was for a time a very large organisation with training camps in the Summer, rivaling the Canadian Militia. The mouvement died out in the 1960's, but I know of at least one group still operating in Valleyfield, QC comprised of elderly Gentlemen working as Ushers in the local church at Sunday Services. A small Village near Lac Megantic, QC was founded by some returning Veterans of the Zouaves Regiments and it was named Piopolis (City of the Pope in honour of Pope Pius IX) to celebrate their Service to the Pope in his time of need. In a way, the Zouaves were probably the first 0rganised Canadians Troops to serve in Foreign Overseas War, before that most Canadians served or volontered on an Individual basis (Peninsular Campaign War of 1812 or US Civil War).

Yet again, I learn something cool that comes out of nowhere. I had no idea this organization existed, much less sent troops to defend the Pope. That's quite remarkable.

Thanks for that, JP. Very interesting stuff. :)
 
Doing research I found a reference to the Ross rifle. When it was decided that the 1st Canadian Division would replace its Ross's with SMLE's the 'brass' discovered the exchange had largely already occurred. Battlefield pickups had been sufficient. No matter, the same brass had all the 1st Division Ross's collected, cleaned and re-issued to the newly arrived Canadian 2nd Division (which was strictly prevented from any contact with the 1st Division). The 2nd Div. went into the trenches with the Ross with the same result. The Ross was a battlefield failure, and not just "in extremis'.

my reading indicated that by the time the powers that be decided to replace the Ross aprox 25% of the Canadians were already using enfields that they picked up along the way. It was not unusual that a Canadian unit would move up to relieve a Brit unit on the line.
 
Yes, those are the items, and there's two more on the turret of the armoured car. They used either SMLE's or Ross's. The idea was to use a .303 'ballistite' round (blank) to fire a 4" smoke pot out the tube.

So...where and when was that pic taken? What are the vehicles?

No answers?

Fox, one of two in Canada in running condition. Next, UC MkI or MkII *

Probably taken at the Windsor Military Muster, not a pastoral scene in wartime France.
 
@ BOGUSIII:

I have written here extensively on the Ross Rifle, likely to the point that people hate to see my name appear.

Drop by some time and I'll let you try out my nice new M-14.

I have some 7.5x54 ammo here that looks like it should fit.....

It's .280 or nothing...


The other Ross story I tripped over (and I'm sure you can confirm) is that during the Ross vs. SMLE comparison trials the Ross team was caught oiling and sanding the SMLE breech at lunch. Rather than be offended, the SMLE team said they would compete against the Ross even with the dirt still in place. And they did. And they won. But politics being politics, the Ross was still chosen. In House of Commons debates, anyone who even question the Ross was accused of being "not patriotic enough".
 
Gras 1874/80/14 rifles & bayonets and also Chassepot bayonets (interchangeable with the Gras) were used in large quantities by Québec Papal Zouaves, they were bought on the Surplus market after WW1. The Zouaves were active in most Catholic Parishes, so it makes sense that the bayonet ended up out West and used by a local Church group out there. The Zouaves were active from the 1870's up to the early 1960's.

In Quebec, the Zouave connection is well known. The Quebec Zouaves used many types of rifles over their long history. The most common were the Gras 1871/80/14, the Swiss Vertelli 1869/71, the US Remington Rolling in 50-70 (Most of these assorted rifles were supposed to have been purchased from Bannerman's of New York, a large Surplus dealer active up to the late 1950's.) One of the last local units in Coaticook, QC even used some Lee-Enfield No.1 MKIII* in the early 1960's. A side note, the Gras 1874/80/14 is a fairly rare rifle, since most of the one left in French Service were destroyed during the Nazis Occupation after the French defeat of 1940.

The Quebec Papal Zouaves came to be during the Italian uprising by Garibaldi, the Papal Lands were under attack and two Regiments were raised and were sent over to Italy to defend the Pope from the Revolutionnary Forces. The Regiments were armed with French Army rifle-muskets and participated in a number of Battles. After the War and the return of the Zouave Regiments to Quebec, it was decided that the Zouaves should be maintained across the Province in every Parish in case the Pope needed them again. Naturally, it became more a Social Organisation used mostly in Parade and Religious celebrations. It was for a time a very large organisation with training camps in the Summer, rivaling the Canadian Militia. The mouvement died out in the 1960's, but I know of at least one group still operating in Valleyfield, QC comprised of elderly Gentlemen working as Ushers in the local church at Sunday Services. A small Village near Lac Megantic, QC was founded by some returning Veterans of the Zouaves Regiments and it was named Piopolis (City of the Pope in honour of Pope Pius IX) to celebrate their Service to the Pope in his time of need. In a way, the Zouaves were probably the first 0rganised Canadians Troops to serve in Foreign Overseas War, before that most Canadians served or volontered on an Individual basis (Peninsular Campaign War of 1812 or US Civil War).




Zouave Uniform circa 1940/50, note the Gras bayonet. Chassepot bayonets were also used with the Gras rifles.

And the Zouave soldier is also immortalized on the Zig-Zag rolling papers packet!
 
No answers?

Fox, one of two in Canada in running condition. Next, UC MkI or MkII *

Probably taken at the Windsor Military Muster, not a pastoral scene in wartime France.

Rule 303 you nailed it....DAMMMNNN YOUUUUUU!!!!

(can't you do the coolest things with photoshop?)

Here's the untouched version:

 
Had me fooled! :)

Speaking of staged Universal Carrier pics, check this out:

A_Universal_Carrier_and_mortar_team_of_the_Indian_6th_Royal_Frontier_Force_in_Italy,_13_December_1943._NA9785.jpg


Note the unconventional "main armament" on the carrier...

"Und a little fine adjustment mit der Grosserhammer to knock ze shmell of Englisher out uf it..."

universal-70.jpg
 
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