buyer beware - used production pistols

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ipsc1

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Today I was at the the range and a gentleman asked to look at the Shadow he had recently purchased. I did and was initially impressed with the very light and smooth double action action. However the hammer fall seemed slow and when I dropped it on my finger it seemed to hit light and further tests proved it was not reliable on winchester primers.

So we decided to change the main spring to a spare that came with the gun. Turns out that both springs had been cut to about 2/3 of the proper length. I gave the guy a proper spring, but if I had not checked he would have had a non-compliant production pistol and would not have known.
 
I don't shoot ipsc, but I assume that such modifications would affect eligibility to compete in production class?
Or is the concern that unreliability would make any attempt to compete frustrating?
Buy a used gun, check it out carefully?
 
I would suspect there are a large amount of production shooters using either aftermarket or cut springs in their guns. When it comes to hammer springs, its pretty much an unenforceable rule.
 
Onagoth said:
I would suspect there are a large amount of production shooters using either aftermarket or cut springs in their guns. When it comes to hammer springs, its pretty much an unenforceable rule.
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Swapping out and cutting springs is done all the time *but* if your production gun fails the trigger pull test during a qualifier, welcome to open division :(.
 
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Production rules are clear.
The application is murky.

If it's not visible during normal handling, and if the gun passes the trigger weight test, there is little that can or will be done.

I'm not suggesting it's right. I'm not suggesting it's common.
However, if someone wants to break the Production rules, they will likely get away with it.

While I do like the premise, I think USPSA got this topic right.
Since nobody is going to tear down a suspect gun at a match, internal modifications might as well be allowed.

Frankly its like making blowjobs illegal. It may satisfy the paper tigers, but is practically impossible to enforce.
 
And the guy that did that consider himself to be a a sport shooter...
That is what I consider bad sportsmanship and a disgrace for the sport.
If you can't follow the rules... don't shoot.
If you actually have to break the rules to improve your shooting, your are a pussy!
Sadly, there are a fair amount of them shooting production.
 
Even if a gun were to be broken down at a match....how many can tell the difference between an OFM spring and a wolff spring?

I had to let a shooter stay in production the last match I RO'd....because I wasn't certain that a part in their gun wasn't made by the OFM.
 
Onagoth said:
Even if a gun were to be broken down at a match....how many can tell the difference between an OFM spring and a wolff spring?

I had to let a shooter stay in production the last match I RO'd....because I wasn't certain that a part in their gun wasn't made by the OFM.
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How many pistol manufactures make their own springs? Maybe XYZ pistols contracts Wolff or ISMI for the springs? As a RO, how am I suppose to know and/or find out? IMHO it doesn't matter because there is a minimum trigger pull test for production guns. It passes and you stay in production, if not, welcome to open.
 
I remember a match where modifications were described by the competitor as "normal wear". How can you say definitively that a shorter spring is not "broken" as opposed to "clipped".

I've always thought they should just go by the trigger weight and not worry about OFM/OEM stuff.
 
Along the lines of what Chris said, a broken spring installed in a gun is totally legal, but a clipped one isn't. The internal mods rule sounds good at but is almost unenforceable.
 
I'm JUST getting into IPSC in production and it seems pretty obvious to me that most shadows are probably clipped. Really why would someone go to the efort and expense to buy the top gamer gun in the div and be satisfied with it being second best to other shooters with the same gun? Especially when the mod is free and unenforceable. Kind'a stupid not to if you think about it. Clipped spring or not the better shooter will still come out on top.
 
I don't think I would buy a used gun that someone used for IPSC, if they were fairly active in IPSC. Reason being that they get modded alot, amateur smithed alot, and shot a LOT, so they would likely be really high milers.
 
Gary D said:
I'm JUST getting into IPSC in production and it seems pretty obvious to me that most shadows are probably clipped. Really why would someone go to the efort and expense to buy the top gamer gun in the div and be satisfied with it being second best to other shooters with the same gun? Especially when the mod is free and unenforceable. Kind'a stupid not to if you think about it. Clipped spring or not the better shooter will still come out on top.
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There's a right way to do something (use a lighter OEM mainspring) and a wrong way to do something (cut the mainspring). At the end of the day, a Production division gun still has to make minimum trigger pull weight so there's no reason to do it the wrong way. Cut springs feel like crap anyways.
 
snootworks said:
There's a right way to do something (use a lighter OEM mainspring) and a wrong way to do something (cut the mainspring). At the end of the day, a Production division gun still has to make minimum trigger pull weight so there's no reason to do it the wrong way. Cut springs feel like crap anyways.
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yes I suppose I should have said clipped or running lighter springs. Regardless; modified outside of reg, but within legal spec. As the saying goes, if you're not cheating you're not trying to win hard enough. Myself, I don't need modded springs, I need padded pants to cushion the ass kicking.
 
Since the factory makes and sells an 11lb hammer spring there is no reason to use clipped ones. Clipped springs stack weird and I've seen them bind up in the mainspring housing, that makes your day suck. (talking CZ here) I run an 8.5lb hammer spring in my Steel Challenge gun, it's almost too light and ND's have been known to happen when people play with it. It makes weight in Production, barely, and if you look at it the wrong way it won't. Only S&B primers give me issues consistently, but Dominion have been known to suffer from light strikes too. Were I #### I'd use that spring in IPSC, but I'm not a ####
 
This is why I don't shoot production anymore .. The idea of a production gun has been lost along the way somewhere, between guys modding thier guns guts to so called "production" guns with heavy bull barrels it's just easier to shoot a division where everything is out in the open .. No ones being sneaky
 
skip1600 said:
This is why I don't shoot production anymore .. The idea of a production gun has been lost along the way somewhere, between guys modding thier guns guts to so called "production" guns with heavy bull barrels it's just easier to shoot a division where everything is out in the open .. No ones being sneaky
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That would be open division ;).
I think power factor may be more of an issue than what mainspring someone has in their production pistol. That goes for all divisions. There were people at the Nationals that were sweating whether or not their reloads were going to make a least minimum power factor.
 
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