.35 caliber Bear Defense Gun

LarryG said:
Polar bears and grizzly encounters in northern Manitoba on a canoe trip?
maybe you know more about such things than I do.
I have never heard of that happening. Have you?
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Yup, we have all 3. This summer a pal of mine got photos from his trail cam of a barren land grizzly outside his cabin across the river from here, maybe 5 miles as the crow flies. Grizzlies have been spotted east of here, and down into Wapusk over the last 10 years or so, and have been seen near some of the outfitters' camps to the northwest over the last 30 years, maybe longer. Maybe they've always been around in small numbers, and just haven't been seen. Anyone traveling by canoe up the Churchill, North Knife, South Knife, or the Seal will see bears, although spotting a grizzly is a rare treat. As for polar bears, we've got lots . . . want some?
 
Since you aren't "hunting" bears and want self protection a pump action shorty shorty 12 is hard to beat. I carry an 8.5" DA Grizzly in the Rockies in my pack sack and out of sight on the trails where there are lots of other people around (who get upset at the sight of a black gun and where chance encounters are very rare) and on a sling when on our own. First round is a 3" slug and the rest are 2-3/4".

When in the company of Mr. Bruin you, or your partner, will not feel the recoil. Trust me.

If you are sure that you will meet up with large bears, a 338 Win Mag with 250 grains is a tried and true combination and it's not even as big as a "35" ;)
 
45/70 lever, a laminate stainless would be a good all weather package...

Not only can you get mouse fart loads for plinking one handed BUT you can run the fun Barnes or 325gr Leverevolution stuff when things may wish to cause you harm...

Yes a pump action rifle may keep your grip on the trigger constant but new shooters tend to pull the muzzle down when cycling them and follow up shots are a farce anyway with dangerous game at actual self defence distances... I've been charged several times, my only follow up shot was behind the ears to make sure it was staying down, there is no time to cycle a bolt, there is no time to work a lever, there is no time to reload after the first shot at a charging animal.
 
Hotwheels81 said:
45/70 lever, a laminate stainless would be a good all weather package...

Not only can you get mouse fart loads for plinking one handed BUT you can run the fun Barnes or 325gr Leverevolution stuff when things may wish to cause you harm...

Yes a pump action rifle may keep your grip on the trigger constant but new shooters tend to pull the muzzle down when cycling them and follow up shots are a farce anyway with dangerous game at actual self defence distances... I've been charged several times, my only follow up shot was behind the ears to make sure it was staying down, there is no time to cycle a bolt, there is no time to work a lever, there is no time to reload after the first shot at a charging animal.
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And yet most bear defense experts recommend 12 ga pumps. As for follow up shots being unworthy of consideration, I carried single shot guns for a few years, and was reasonably comfortable with them, but I'm much more comfortable with a repeater. Although my experience suggests that bears don't respond particularly well when someone attempts to drive them off with live fire, you might be tempted to try, but with a single shot, your only shot must be a killing shot. If your shot misses, or knocks the bear down, but doesn't ice him, a fast followup might be viewed more favorably. Regardless of how the OP chooses to arm himself, if he purchases his rifle now, by next summer, he should have mastered practical marksmanship, and gun handling under stress.

As for the amount of time one has on a charging animal, I ran this drill prior to going to Africa, and got much better at it by the time I went then I was in this video. The rifle is my custom Brno 602 in .375 Ultra with a 100 grs of H-4831 under a 270 gr Hornady . . .
click on the thumbnail
 
Brutus said:
-356 Winchester in a Winchester AE 94 or the Marlin 336.

(30-30 carbine size package with more clout)
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dam it, had a 375 Win 94 for wild boar hunting, but gave up on it, coulda shoulda woulda kep't it! But it was quite slow to load, especially on an ATV or in a Jeep.
 
OK just speculating here but since we are not allow to carry a sidearm for bear defense, what .35 caliber backpackable rifle would be recommended instead?


UMMM.....how about just carry an Antique pistol ? Its legal."in the woods" Get a 11mm. =45 cal.
 
Boomer said:
And yet most bear defense experts recommend 12 ga pumps. As for follow up shots being unworthy of consideration, I carried single shot guns for a few years, and was reasonably comfortable with them, but I'm much more comfortable with a repeater. Although my experience suggests that bears don't respond particularly well when someone attempts to drive them off with live fire, you might be tempted to try, but with a single shot, your only shot must be a killing shot. If your shot misses, or knocks the bear down, but doesn't ice him, a fast followup might be viewed more favorably. Regardless of how the OP chooses to arm himself, if he purchases his rifle now, by next summer, he should have mastered practical marksmanship, and gun handling under stress.

As for the amount of time one has on a charging animal, I ran this drill prior to going to Africa, and got much better at it by the time I went then I was in this video. The rifle is my custom Brno 602 in .375 Ultra with a 100 grs of H-4831 under a 270 gr Hornady . . .
click on the thumbnail
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....impressive marksmanship sir.

But in fairness this is typical in my experience how these encounters happen, a well viewed video for all to consider.




In my opinion you only get one shot in a dire situation, I have fired warning shots at black bear only to be circled, winded, stalked and having to put the animal down... I don't fire warning shots anymore, I remove myself from the situation and if that's not possible I remove the threat when the situation deems it necessary... Warning shots are fired from pen launchers by the person not holding a rifle.


just put the pointy end into something that stops forward momentum of the critter be it a metal tipped stick or a 500gr solid.
 
Just a word on rifles if you're serious about getting one for bear defence; I have no use for detachable magazines. Too easy to get lost or misplaced. What you don't want is to have a bear on top of you while your non-shooting partner scrambles to find the magazine that's in your pocket. Also make sure everybody you're travelling with knows how it works.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1108842-Eton-schoolboy-polar-bear-death-Svalbard-expedition-leader-‘gouged-bear’s-eyes-as-it?highlight=polar+bear+attack

When travelling by canoe, or in camp at night, I would leave it chamber empty/magazine full. That's the safest possible way to carry it, but it still takes less than a second to chamber a round and have it ready to go. I've already stated my preference for the Mauser 98; originally a military design, it's the most rugged and reliable ever built. The original 180 degree flag safety is also the most secure, and perfectly satisfactory if you're using open sights only.
 
This guy showed up at the house yesterday, he pounded on the house, he would not let me out of the house, would not run from the dog or bear bangers. I did not want to kill him , so we have bear police here. They were called and came and drugged him and took him off to jail. It turned out he is a 23 year old male ( we knew it was a he ) with no other encounters with people other than when he was tagged in 93 as a 2 year old. He is old and probably will not survive the winter he is only 505 lbs. in his prime he would be over 1000 lbs. Glad I did not shoot him.
stay safe
pounder
 
Great story pounder. I hate to say it, but his facial expression says "please end it".

23 years is an unusually long life for a male bear in the wild,no? I've heard of female black bears making it to mid 30's, but not males and especially not ones that live in such a harsh environment.
 
Hotwhells81, that video is a good one. Anyway, I don't advocate attempting to drive bears off with live fire, but I do understand that some people will try it. The results that the guide in the inflatable got, where the bear turned and bolts, is very different than what I've experienced, and makes me think it was hit. But when the video was posted a few years back, a poster came on who said he knew the people involved and supported their claim as to how it happened. If so, live fire drove that bear off, where my experience is that they act all offended, and slowly walk off stiff legged, often turning to look back at you, all the time muttering to themselves, or as in your experience, where if in heavy cover, they'll circle around grumbling and popping their jaws.

Then there is the Live Leaks video of the older Alaskan guide who has to dump the female grizzly in the sand dunes when she comes. His shot doesn't ice her, but she turns and runs back several yards before she drops; I'd have hit that bear at least once more by the time it piles up, and I'd have probably hit it once more after that.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a44_1238995443&comments=1

Now, as to tactics, I agree with you that when the bear is coming in, you only get one shot, even if you're shooting a semi-auto. The reason is that its a mistake to shoot early. If you start shooting at 25 or 30 yards, due to its movement, its difficult to keep the bear in your sight picture, and the tendency is to shoot behind it. By the time the bear is 3 yards away, you've run dry, and there you are trying to jam more rounds into the mag when he hits you. Don't be that guy. You wait until the last possible moment. When the bear is that close, his movement doesn't take him out of your sight picture, you brain him, and its done. Well maybe. These situations tend to be pretty exciting. You might pull the shot, or maybe the bears steps into a hole that unexpectedly drops his head and shoulders out of your sight picture at the instant you fire. So instead of dumping him, now he's wounded, and you've got to hit him again before he A) injures and kills you, or B) makes it to cover where he could ambush you as you search for him. The exception to the rule is when you are protecting a group of people. The circumstances then might cause you to have to shoot before you'd really like to. If you wait for the blood on the shoes shot, sure enough there will be people pounding you on the back yelling, "KILL EM! KILL EM!" that does nothing to improve your marksmanship. In this situation if the bear is coming straight in, dropping to a kneeling position puts him on the a level trajectory with you bullet, and dispenses with the problem of shooting behind him. Otherwise, we generally agree, when the bear comes in, wait for the correct moment to shoot, but then repeat as required from that point onward.

Folks who are non-hunters who've been convinced they need a gun on that wilderness adventure, and hunters who unexpectedly find themselves in a dangerous bear situation, are all inclined to make the same mistake; they'll shoot the bear in the chest. From the time that someone first put a charge of powder under a handful of stones in a metal pipe, and lit it up, hunters have been trained that a chest shot is a killing shot, that humanely dispatches a game animal, and is large enough to mitigate errors in marksmanship. Remember Hatchet Jack frozen in the snow in Jeremiah Johnson; he left a note saying, " . . . Its a good rifle and kilt the bear that kilt me . . . " well I bet he made a chest shot, and anyone who makes a chest shot on a charging bear had better have a pen and paper handy. Your shot will kill the bear, no question. The question is what happens during the time that the bear is hit until the lights go out when his brain runs out of oxygenated blood. That might seem like a very long, unpleasant time. The bear is close, the target is big, remember the brain is only the width of the snout, despite the massive width of the head, and its shallow, as there is only a short space between the back of the eyes and ears. If you hold dead center and shoot high, you've got the spine, which is nearly as good, but it might require a follow up shot. The moment you press that trigger, work that action as hard as you can, and get another round in the chamber, and get back on target. Its likely prudent just to put another one in there anyway, even before wondering whether or not he's done.
 
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fugawi said:
...Not that there are any here in MB, but besides a black bear, I'd like to feel safe that it could be used on a grizzly or a polar bear. (which if I went on a northern canoe trip might be a concern - don't know for sure)

Thanks.
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There seems to be some misunderstanding that I expected to meet a black bear, grizzly bear and polar bear all on one canoe trip. Not likely as as far as I know grizzes are extinct here in MB. But polar bears sure - they're an extreme hazard in Churchill and its conceivable that you would have to defend yourself from one if canoeing or backpacking in Northern Manitoba.

And one post did mention grizzlys here in MB so you never know. Conservation MB used to deny the existence of cougars here. (not the Palimino kind)

The bear that I have had an encounter with was a black bear. Thats would be the bear most likely to meet where I hunt and have backpacked/canoed. But who's to say I won't hunt in B.C. or even Alaska someday.

fugawi said:
OK just speculating here but since we are not allow to carry a sidearm for bear defense, what .35 caliber backpackable rifle would be recommended instead?
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I'm talking backpacking here, so yes a it would have a sling on it because a rifle inside a pack is of no use, again perhaps a misunderstanding since I said backpackable, but...

fugawi said:
Something quick to bear (pardon the pun) and simple to use in a sudden encounter.
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Key phrase here is 'sudden encounter'. I have had a sudden encounter with a bear. Luckily it turned out well for me as I was unarmed. But for others it has not. We have had several people mauled to death by bears in B.C., AB and Yukon recently. It has happened here in MB within the last decade. Hence I carry slugs now while grouse hunting. I'm not too worried when deer hunting because I am armed sufficiently to deter a bear or outright kill it. Plus I'm hunting hence I'm aware of my surroundings and focused on detection.

If it was legal to do so I'd carry a .454 Casull or something similar on my hip. But I'm not a trapper or geologist so I can't.

The thread was created for discussion on what would be a good bear defense firearm for non hunting wilderness activities: backpacking and canoe camping.

Not hunting when you're in the field armed and ready, perhaps with others armed and ready. Or maybe other hunters in the area who could help in an emergency.

Its for when you are on your own or in a small group and the sh*t hits the fan when you are least expecting it. Like when you are carrying a canoe on your shoulders while portaging. You might not even see the bear. That's why the reference to a non shooter. The non shooter might have the firearm and be the one to have to use it.

fugawi said:
Did I mention simple and straight forward to use...
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This is the reason for the emphasis on dependability and simplicity. I want something that a non shooter could understand and use after a few demonstrations. That may or may not include range time - in an ideal world it would. But probably wouldn't as we all live busy lives, and a non shooter unless highly motivated probably isn't interested in going to the range.

At best it might be a few practice rounds on the trail or shoreline.

rokoro said:
You didn't provide much information regarding what type of rifle/action you prefer and what sort of budget you had in mind. I would give serious consideration to a good mauser 98 action and install a 20 inch barrel chambered in 35 Whelan.
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I didn't specify type of firearm as I didn't want people to think only one type of rifle action. I did pick a caliber because I want something that will hit hard and not have too much recoil. .45/70s are out thank you. So are .300 Magnums, Nitro Expresses, big bore handguns and the like. I might entertain the thought of a .44 Mag but I'm leaning towards rifle not pistol calibers. I don't have experience with the .44 Mag in a rifle but I do in a S&W 629 and I know how that recoils. Again keep the non shooter in mind.

Shotguns are good, I hadn't thought of that. So are the pump rifles. My gut says stay away from autoloaders and even levers (that hurts as I'm a lever guy when hunting). If you must know my tendency would be a short bolt action. There were a number of good recommendations in this respect:

Remington 700s, Model 7s, Ruger 77s, Mauser 98 action...; calibers: .35 Whelen, .358 Win, .350 RM, .35 Rem...

As for price range... well again I didn't specify one but its safe to assume I'm not going out with a Cape gun or granddad's antique Winchester '95. No exotics or custom guns, no modern mag fed military with an Elcan or Eotech -

...something that if it falls into the river when you flip your canoe or bash against the rocks, or that non shooter drops - you either pick it up, clean it off and it still works; or if its a write off, you don't find yourself out of pocket thousands of $$$.

BTW I already hunt with a .358 BLR so that had something to do with the caliber choice. :)

Thanks to all who posted.
 
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pounder said:
This guy showed up at the house yesterday, he pounded on the house, he would not let me out of the house, would not run from the dog or bear bangers. I did not want to kill him , so we have bear police here. They were called and came and drugged him and took him off to jail. It turned out he is a 23 year old male ( we knew it was a he ) with no other encounters with people other than when he was tagged in 93 as a 2 year old. He is old and probably will not survive the winter he is only 505 lbs. in his prime he would be over 1000 lbs. Glad I did not shoot him.
stay safe
pounder
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Huh, why didn't you call and get me to visit. I'd have probably shown up with that little CZ-527 any you could have laughed and laughed . . . as the bear chased me around the truck.
 
The only thing that I would add is that in a true M98 I would modify the extractor to allow you to drop a round in the loading port and chamber it. That's the only disadvantage to the Mauser but it's not impossible to ovecome.
 
I'm still thinking a slicked up 16" Rossi 92 trapper stainless in .44 Mag with ghost rings is a hard combination to beat for handiness in a bear DEFENCE gun. For hunting, you might want something more suited for longer ranges though.

Although a lot of guys here are suggesting barn burners, I've always felt VERY safe carrying this guy in .35 Remington with Leverevolution ammo. Honestly, there is no animal on earth, grizzly included, that a .35 Remington slug will bounce off inside 100 yards. To suggest otherwise is just hysteria.



If you do get a bolt gun, I would humbly suggest getting something with controlled round feed and practise with it!! Cycling a bolt action under fear/adrenaline conditions is nowhere near as intuitive as a pump or lever gun.

I would NOT trust a jam-o-magic for dangerous game. No guide or Africa hunter I know of would EVER carry a semi in a big bore calibre. The odds are just to high of having a feeding issue.

Another credible option for close-in defence is a shorty side by side in 20 or 12 gauge, or a shorty pump based on a Remington 870, Mossberg 500 or 590, or Ithaca 37 action with good slugs. Not as ###y as a rifle though - lol. It's unlikely in a frizz attack you will get or need more than a second shot. After the second bang, one of you has already been victorious most of the time.
 
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