One rifle, one calibre, one cartride.

BigUglyMan said:
I think that the argument that hoyt is making is that a 10" KZ is pretty liberal (small "l"...small "l"!!!). I would tend to agree with that sentiment. 8" is, in my experience, a more commonly accepted yardstick but 6" gives you a conservative, but probably safe, KZ.
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My point was that Kentucky windage does not play into a MPBR calculation but I certainly agree with his sentiment that using a margin of safety by utilizing a smaller kill zone is not a bad idea. That's also why I originally called the 45-70 a short range chambering.
 
sheephunter said:
The whole point of calculating MPBR is so that there is only one aim point with no Kentucky Windage. Once you start holding over, you are no longer with in your MPBR. With a kill zone of 10" the MPBR would be calculated using a single aim point where the bullet never rises more than 5" above or or falls 5" below that single aim point. Using a 6" kill zone, The MPBR of a 45/70 would be pretty short.....under 200 yards with many loads.
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I agree, a zero range of 150 yards produces a maximum ordinate of about 3" and I mistakenly posted earlier that a 300 zero produces an MO of 6" but that is incorrect, a 200 yard zero produces a maximum ordinate of 6". That's assuming a 400 gr bullet at 1900. IMHO, a bullet rise of 6" is too much by twice. I've found it easier to adjust from bullet drop at long range than it is to adjust for bullet rise at close.
 
Personally, all the guns listed over 300 mag are wayy to big, what, are you guys trying to stop trains?

1 gun, 1 load for best all around gun... Sure isn't gonna be a .338 nor is it gonna be a .22 hornet
Think logical.
I seen a few guys post .270 REM bolt action, with about a 140gn bullet, and I agree.

Its reliable, you can actually shoulder it, you can kill moose or elk with it, even rabbits. The ammo is available everywhere, the ammo is reasonably priced. You can shoot it thousands of times. Its fairly long range...the list goes on.
 
Hihi962 said:
Personally, all the guns listed over 300 mag are wayy to big, what, are you guys trying to stop trains?

1 gun, 1 load for best all around gun... Sure isn't gonna be a .338 nor is it gonna be a .22 hornet
Think logical.
I seen a few guys post .270 REM bolt action, with about a 140gn bullet, and I agree.

Its reliable, you can actually shoulder it, you can kill moose or elk with it, even rabbits. The ammo is available everywhere, the ammo is reasonably priced. You can shoot it thousands of times. Its fairly long range...the list goes on.
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He lives in the Yukon. This means big moose, big bears, the odd elk and of course bison. The law says minimum .30 cal + 180gr bullet and 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy for bison, so the .270 is automatically out.
 
Mine would be a .338 RUM with 225 TTSX's at 3100 fps.........hammer of Thor for elk / moose and will handle big Bears with ease!!!! As far as the smaller stuff.......just a little bit more energy wasted on the trees and dirt behind 'em whent he bullet passed through.
 
Wow, well that is some serious fire power, not many guys can "honestly" shoot rifles so big and actually hit their target. I've seen it many times over the years.

And My mistake, i missed his location.
 
Hihi962 said:
Wow, well that is some serious fire power, not many guys can "honestly" shoot rifles so big and actually hit their target. I've seen it many times over the years.

.
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A 338 is hardly a big rifle. I'd wager some serious money that there are many guys on here that "honestly" shoot way bigger rifles than that very accurately. No doubt some people don't handle recoil well but there are lots that it doesn't bother at all.
 
Hihi962 said:
Wow, well that is some serious fire power, not many guys can "honestly" shoot rifles so big and actually hit their target. I've seen it many times over the years.

And My mistake, i missed his location.
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Really? My first ever rifle was a .35 cal - I think I had been shooting over 10 years before I shot any centre-fire UNDER .30 cal - the .270 is a pipsqueak north of 60 ;)
 
No wonder there is so much game up there.

Shooting a 325WSM , I bet that would knock your hat off, or even make any big guy take a step back.
Thats big stuff. I just dont see the need to take out the measuring stick to see whos rifle is bigger.
Have shot a lot of blackies, elk, moose with .270's in our group.
Most guys close their eyes or are scared of such calibers.

338 not a big rifle? Geez what are you trying to kill? Planes?
 
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Hihi962 said:
Wow, well that is some serious fire power, not many guys can "honestly" shoot rifles so big and actually hit their target. I've seen it many times over the years.

And My mistake, i missed his location.
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Ah yes, but that is a topic for a different day! ;)
 
Hihi962 said:
No wonder there is so much game up there.

Shooting a 325WSM , I bet that would knock your hat off, or even make any big guy take a step back.
Thats big stuff. I just dont see the need to take out the measuring stick to see whos rifle is bigger.
Have shot a lot of blackies, elk, moose with .270's in our group.
Most guys close their eyes or are scared of such calibers.

338 not a big rifle? Geez what are you trying to kill? Planes?
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Anybody that can shoot a 12 gauge in cold blood can shoot a .338... they're not that bad. Sounds like you have yourself so psyched out that you're afraid of the rifle before you even touch the trigger. All it takes to shoot one well is a bit of willpower and the right frame of mind.
 
Perhaps you're right, i have physically never tried to go as big as .338 , but with guns at 5000ft.lbs of energy, that doesn't seem appetizing. Anyway, no more derailment of the thread for me.

I'd still stick with the .270 win cartridge in a common REM bolt action, so i could get parts and ammo everywhere.
Skip shooting the buffalo and confidently knock down a few more moose instead.
 
sheephunter said:
The whole point of calculating MPBR is so that there is only one aim point with no Kentucky Windage. Once you start holding over, you are no longer with in your MPBR. With a kill zone of 10" the MPBR would be calculated using a single aim point where the bullet never rises more than 5" above or or falls 5" below that single aim point. Using a 6" kill zone, The MPBR of a 45/70 would be pretty short.....under 200 yards with many loads.
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I do not agree... MPBR is not to utilize a single aim point... it is to minimize deviation over your expected range span... for example if my MPBR for my .260 (just throwing out numbers here to make my point, they won't be accurate) with a 129 grain load is 340 yards with a 4" radius, requiring a zero of 280 yards... and resulting in a mid point trajectory of +4" at 150 yards... knowing this, why then would I not hold 4" low when a buck is standing at 150 yards??? Ergo Kentucky windage.... OR if I know my POI at 375 yards is -4" why then would I not hold 4" high on a pronghorn ranged at 375 yards??? Ergo, Kentucky windage... but by utilizing MPBR for my particular set-up I have minimized deviation and the amount I am required to hold over or under... by knowing your trajectory, you can be much more accurate in the field and at the range... IMO it would be irresponsible to zero for MPBR with the standard kill zone of 10" (I only use 6")... and then knowing your target is either at mid range OR maximum MPBR and NOT either holding over or under... in not taking the POI at that particular range into consideration you risking "human error" or "Murphy's Law" to edge the bullet slightly in the wrong direction, resulting in an undesirable hit. JMO.
 
Hihi962 said:
Personally, all the guns listed over 300 mag are wayy to big, what, are you guys trying to stop trains?

1 gun, 1 load for best all around gun... Sure isn't gonna be a .338 nor is it gonna be a .22 hornet
Think logical.
I seen a few guys post .270 REM bolt action, with about a 140gn bullet, and I agree.

Its reliable, you can actually shoulder it, you can kill moose or elk with it, even rabbits. The ammo is available everywhere, the ammo is reasonably priced. You can shoot it thousands of times. Its fairly long range...the list goes on.
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My friend you need to travel more. And broaden your horizons. Very few in this thread have recommended anything "big". And certainly none of the really experienced shooters.
 
Hihi962 said:
Personally, all the guns listed over 300 mag are wayy to big, what, are you guys trying to stop trains?

1 gun, 1 load for best all around gun... Sure isn't gonna be a .338 nor is it gonna be a .22 hornet
Think logical.
I seen a few guys post .270 REM bolt action, with about a 140gn bullet, and I agree.

Its reliable, you can actually shoulder it, you can kill moose or elk with it, even rabbits. The ammo is available everywhere, the ammo is reasonably priced. You can shoot it thousands of times. Its fairly long range...the list goes on.
Click to expand...

I'm a man of extremes I guess, I firmly believe that most of us shoot drastically better with less recoil. That being said with very little practice many of us can easily master cartridges that recoil like the .338 Win Mag.
I can shoot little tiny bug hole groups with a .223 and I'd argue that everyone on here would shoot it better then most of the general deer cartridges. The .223 can be loaded with rounds hat make it capable of cleanly killing deer, does this make it an acceptable all around deer cartridge compared to say a .30-06? I would argue no, while the recoil of a .30-06 may cause many to shoot it less well that a .223 it doesn't eliminate practical hunting accuracy with a little bit of practice. The performance gains made by stepping up to the larger cartridge easily justify the increased recoil.
I say extremes because I have used a .223 for deer and will again but I've also accurately shot cartridges like the .416 Rigby and Remington and would have taken game with it had the opportunity presented its self. Some times sacrificing .3" of accuracy makes sense to step up in terms of performance.
 
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