8.5" 12ga vs bear

I don't feel like digging the pics up but here's the MVs of 3 slugs I chrono'd out of my 8.5" Grizzly.
Remington Managed Recoil 1 oz advertised 1200 fps, 8.5" hit 950 fps
Royal Brenneke 1 1/8 oz advertised 1410 fps, 8.5" hit 1080 fps
Federal 1 1/4 oz slug advertised 1560 fps, 8.5" hit over 1100 fps
I can't remember the exact numbers but there you have it. At 10 yds those slugs are moving just as fast as a longer barrel drives them out at 50-75 yds. Do your part and that's a dead bear. You don't need a longer barrel unless you want one. A short barrel works just as well and in some cases better (reduced chance of fragmentation) Carry an short shotgun in the bush when you're actually doing something and you'll have a whole new appreciation for them.
 
I see a few problems, although I doubt that terminal performance will be one of them. The first is how well are you going to be able to shoot the gun? Even if we ignore the short sight radius for the moment, a barrel as short as 8.5" is too short to balance the gun, so it will be butt heavy, it will feel clubby, and it will be slow to get on target, compared to a similar gun with say a 14" barrel. There isn't much magazine capacity, maybe 2 rounds. But the the show stopper for me is the possibility of my hand inadvertently slipping off the slide and moving in front of the muzzle just as I fired. No thanks. I don't want the barrel of a pump action shotgun or rifle to be so short that I can extend my support hand past the muzzle when the gun is shouldered.
 
sunray said:
If Yogi is within 10 or even 30 yards, put some BBQ sauce on yourself. Maybe you'll have annoyed a bear that doesn't like sweet stuff. You will never be fast enough nor accurate enough with anything. Yogi can cover 100 yards in less than 6 seconds. You cannot recognize the threat and react with accuracy in that time. Oh and the slug will do if you can hit Yogi's brain stem or spine. You won't stop him in his tracks if you hit him anywhere else. Mind you, a 10 yards even that won't help.
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Well you're right about the necessity of hitting the brain or spine, but you're wrong about pretty much everything else. No animal commits himself to a charge from 100 yards out, at 100 yards he's just moving towards you. In a defensive, rather than a hunting scenario, shooting early is wrong. The closer the bear is to the muzzle, the less chance there is of missing that relatively small target, and a brain shot will rug him right now . . . provided you destroy the brain; simply shooting him in the head might not be enough. Of course one needs the correct mindset and a knowledge of bear behavior so that the potential danger can anticipated, and we must practice before we're faced with the real deal, but it doesn't take superman to survive a dangerous bear encounter, just competence and a cool hand.
 
My experience - I have tried different 12", 14" and 18" shotguns, but it seems that I can shoot half decent with 20"+ only...
What the heck, most of the time I would carry out my 28" O/U - maybe because I have confidence in this gun and I know I will most likely hit what I am aiming at...especially in a hurry
If I will count on a 8" gun I would practice, practice, practice...and then practice again
 
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Boomer said:
Well you're right about the necessity of hitting the brain or spine, but you're wrong about pretty much everything else. No animal commits himself to a charge from 100 yards out, at 100 yards he's just moving towards you. In a defensive, rather than a hunting scenario, shooting early is wrong. The closer the bear is to the muzzle, the less chance there is of missing that relatively small target, and a brain shot will rug him right now . . . provided you destroy the brain; simply shooting him in the head might not be enough. Of course one needs the correct mindset and a knowledge of bear behavior so that the potential danger can anticipated, and we must practice before we're faced with the real deal, but it doesn't take superman to survive a dangerous bear encounter, just competence and a cool hand.
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Bears are much like Sunray.
Do
Not
Engage.
 
Boomer said:
I see a few problems, although I doubt that terminal performance will be one of them. The first is how well are you going to be able to shoot the gun? Even if we ignore the short sight radius for the moment, a barrel as short as 8.5" is too short to balance the gun, so it will be butt heavy, it will feel clubby, and it will be slow to get on target, compared to a similar gun with say a 14" barrel. There isn't much magazine capacity, maybe 2 rounds. But the the show stopper for me is the possibility of my hand inadvertently slipping off the slide and moving in front of the muzzle just as I fired. No thanks. I don't want the barrel of a pump action shotgun or rifle to be so short that I can extend my support hand past the muzzle when the gun is shouldered.
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The 8.5" with either a Hogue or Magpul stock is nearly perfectly balanced in my experience. Like any firearm practice is needed. With practice a short shotgun can be perfectly safe.
 
If you train with it, it's good to go. I own a 870 rem police 18 inch with extended mag. I shortened the stock to an 11 inch lenght of pull stock on it. It is now under 37 inches overall. I trained in skeet shooting with it. Looked stupid at the range. But Everything fits in the back of my ATV and a pistol stock when I go camping. It is legal and fits in my sling back pack I bought from 4 hazards. My hunting buddies think I am crazy a bit but last year, after the sun went down, wolves were close to my hunting turret and we could hear them. It was a stroll in the park walking back to camp with my bolt action in the back and my 870 in my hands. I also have a flashlight under the barrel. My hunting buddies don't laugh no more. They love it. Also, do not forget to train your wife with the gun. Start with target loads first and move slowly towards buck shots. It kicks.
 
G.Mitchell said:
The 8.5" with either a Hogue or Magpul stock is nearly perfectly balanced in my experience. Like any firearm practice is needed. With practice a short shotgun can be perfectly safe.
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Yes practice can be perfectly safe, but problems will occur when you are in a state of anxiety, when your hands sweat and your fine motor skills take a dump. A forend which employes a hand stop would be a useful feature though. I have a Magpul stock on my 20" 590 and it balances well, so I'm not quite sure how less than half the barrel and magazine steel out in front of the receiver would provide perfect balance.
 
Sorry not perfect balance as is middle of the gun perfect balances but with a proper grip the gun balanced perfectly for me between the two hands. When holding it to shoot the balance feels great. Not too front heavy or butt heavy.

Yes things happen under stress, can't argue that.

To anyone interested in an 8.5" you can't really get a sense of it without trying one.

I shoot skeet with mine, I punch cans and clays out beyond 20 yards easily. This is a fun shooting gun and nothing I've tried comes close to the portability and pack ability of an 8.5" shotgun.

Just my 2 cents. If someone is interested in one see if someone in your area has one and try to shoot it.
 
JCMarin said:
If you train with it, it's good to go. I own a 870 rem police 18 inch with extended mag. I shortened the stock to an 11 inch lenght of pull stock on it. It is now under 37 inches overall. I trained in skeet shooting with it. Looked stupid at the range. But Everything fits in the back of my ATV and a pistol stock when I go camping. It is legal and fits in my sling back pack I bought from 4 hazards. My hunting buddies think I am crazy a bit but last year, after the sun went down, wolves were close to my hunting turret and we could hear them. It was a stroll in the park walking back to camp with my bolt action in the back and my 870 in my hands. I also have a flashlight under the barrel. My hunting buddies don't laugh no more. They love it. Also, do not forget to train your wife with the gun. Start with target loads first and move slowly towards buck shots. It kicks.
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recoil dont phase her.
she shoots her 303 better than me.
 
G.Mitchell said:
Sorry not perfect balance as is middle of the gun perfect balances but with a proper grip the gun balanced perfectly for me between the two hands. When holding it to shoot the balance feels great. Not too front heavy or butt heavy.

Yes things happen under stress, can't argue that.

To anyone interested in an 8.5" you can't really get a sense of it without trying one.

I shoot skeet with mine, I punch cans and clays out beyond 20 yards easily. This is a fun shooting gun and nothing I've tried comes close to the portability and pack ability of an 8.5" shotgun.

Just my 2 cents. If someone is interested in one see if someone in your area has one and try to shoot it.
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i grabbed a backpacker from canada ammo fall clearance... LOVE the size.
inspired this acquisition.
 
As far as firearms defense goes it's like this.....

Handgun--------------------Long gun

The gap between these two points is the variability between portability/power/concealment/speed of deployment. All are affected by things like sitting/standing/sleeping bag/activities going on other than shooting/proficiency/legality/politics/optics/safety etc.

Nobody is gonna argue that when they NEED to stop a determined attacker....particularily a much bigger/stronger/purposeful one that likely has the drop on you, is an experienced hunter killer and has the intent and or disregard of taking your life...regardless of if it walks/talks/snorts has thumbs or paws.....would rather have a long gun with sufficient ballistics/capacity/shootability vs something smaller/less competent for the job.
Handguns are for immediate deployment and or fighting to your long gun...whichever comes 1st.

The reality is....the most important part of using a firearm for defense is HAVING one when you need to.

As Canadians our firearm defense is limited to long guns greater than 26in overall unless one is willing to tip the scales of personal protection vs felony criminal prosecution in favor of one's self. A biter pill in the otherwise spectacular free society we enjoy!

Rant over...gettin' to the point..... Wilderness defence is just that...defence and almost assuredly defence when you are focused on the pursuit of happiness and engaged in activity/both hands busy/unaware/distracted...maybe even asleep. The firearm needs to be present, accessable, quick to deploy, snag free, user friendly, familiar (to the point of muscle memory familiar hopefully) sufficient in power and capacity to get the job done...in that order.
If it ain't there fail. If it ain't accessable fail. If it can't be deployed in time fail. If it snags/hangs up/gets stuck fail. If it is too complicated, slow to manipulate, ya don't remember how it works fail. If it doesn't stop the threat and or requires more rds than it has onboard fail.

A shotgun or centrefire rifle of the right ammo config for the bear threat dings the power/capacity bell. Now we get to the size/length/capacity/accessability/deployment/user friendliness options.
Someone previously mentioned actually doing things while packing the weapon...great point. Try going about the activity you will be doing when the bear presents....what size/weight/length weapon are you REALISTICALLY prepared to tolerate carrying/slinging/packing/ the 99.9~100% of the time you won't need it?

The carry method is as or more important than having it at all and it's effectiveness.
Slung/packed/holstered/sheathed/brackets/concealed etc....



ACTUAL REPLY to the posters question goes here: LOL
DOES the 8.5 in give up velocity...yes. Does it give up too much?...if it means the difference between the gun being present or not then NO. If the bear gets you despite being shot YES.
Will a 14/18/20in barrel make a significant difference in this equation?...ABSOLUTELY wrt how portable/carry friendly and ultimately if it's there when needed. NOT LIKELY wrt to terminal ballistics when using it at the distance/scenario of a bear attack.

I am of the strong opinion that the 8.5in pump shotgun goes too far in compactness/portability by giving up capacity/ballistic performance and introducing the possibility of a hand in front of the muzzle when deploying. These are all significant compromises vs a 12.5~14in version that retains a full mag tube, better ballistics, and is safer/user friendly with the muzzle that extra few inchwes ahead of a fully racked slide/hand position..with a buffer if your hand slips forward.
Another issue is the reality of $$. A lot of people need to keep the expense of this device within reason...the 8.5's...decent ones....are double what a similar quality 12.5~14in can be. This affects whether it will be present.
A 12.5in full conventional stocked shotgun dehorned smooth (NO ninja devices protruding from itself) either slung or packed/holstered etc gets as close to the legal size as possible while remaining shootable and has decent capacity to deliver multiple rds (tap rack bang drill/FTF/multiple attackers/FTS etc).
A similarily sized centrefire rifle fits the bill too...although none of them are as capable of being rendered as smooth/snag proof as a 870...hammers are a ##### in sleeping bags!! LOL


Whew....had alotta coffee this am..and always luv a good bear defence thread:)
 
Boomer said:
I see a few problems, although I doubt that terminal performance will be one of them. The first is how well are you going to be able to shoot the gun? Even if we ignore the short sight radius for the moment, a barrel as short as 8.5" is too short to balance the gun, so it will be butt heavy, it will feel clubby, and it will be slow to get on target, compared to a similar gun with say a 14" barrel. There isn't much magazine capacity, maybe 2 rounds. But the the show stopper for me is the possibility of my hand inadvertently slipping off the slide and moving in front of the muzzle just as I fired. No thanks. I don't want the barrel of a pump action shotgun or rifle to be so short that I can extend my support hand past the muzzle when the gun is shouldered.
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hey boomer . as the owner of a couple of these guns one a dlask and the other a grizzly i am going to put my two cents worth in to the discussion .shooting clay from a ground mounted thrower i have seen two targets going in two directions get pulverized by a experienced shooter . as for capacity the dlask holds three in the mag and the grizzly two .as for putting your hand in front of the muzzle i have never heard of it happening and have no concerns about it but admittedly i do not live in bear country and am not panicked when shooting .i prefer the dlask gun as it feels much more balanced in my hands were as the grizzly has a heavy little sucker feel to it . i have slightly modified the dlask with a cut down remington for end and a high quality recoil pad . the grizzly is my knock around gun on the farm . if you ever get the chance give one of the short dlask guns a try . you might like it .
 
terez said:
As far as firearms defense goes it's like this.....

Handgun--------------------Long gun

The gap between these two points is the variability between portability/power/concealment/speed of deployment. All are affected by things like sitting/standing/sleeping bag/activities going on other than shooting/proficiency/legality/politics/optics/safety etc.

Nobody is gonna argue that when they NEED to stop a determined attacker....particularily a much bigger/stronger/purposeful one that likely has the drop on you, is an experienced hunter killer and has the intent and or disregard of taking your life...regardless of if it walks/talks/snorts has thumbs or paws.....would rather have a long gun with sufficient ballistics/capacity/shootability vs something smaller/less competent for the job.
Handguns are for immediate deployment and or fighting to your long gun...whichever comes 1st.

The reality is....the most important part of using a firearm for defense is HAVING one when you need to.

As Canadians our firearm defense is limited to long guns greater than 26in overall unless one is willing to tip the scales of personal protection vs felony criminal prosecution in favor of one's self. A biter pill in the otherwise spectacular free society we enjoy!

Rant over...gettin' to the point..... Wilderness defence is just that...defence and almost assuredly defence when you are focused on the pursuit of happiness and engaged in activity/both hands busy/unaware/distracted...maybe even asleep. The firearm needs to be present, accessable, quick to deploy, snag free, user friendly, familiar (to the point of muscle memory familiar hopefully) sufficient in power and capacity to get the job done...in that order.
If it ain't there fail. If it ain't accessable fail. If it can't be deployed in time fail. If it snags/hangs up/gets stuck fail. If it is too complicated, slow to manipulate, ya don't remember how it works fail. If it doesn't stop the threat and or requires more rds than it has onboard fail.

A shotgun or centrefire rifle of the right ammo config for the bear threat dings the power/capacity bell. Now we get to the size/length/capacity/accessability/deployment/user friendliness options.
Someone previously mentioned actually doing things while packing the weapon...great point. Try going about the activity you will be doing when the bear presents....what size/weight/length weapon are you REALISTICALLY prepared to tolerate carrying/slinging/packing/ the 99.9~100% of the time you won't need it?

The carry method is as or more important than having it at all and it's effectiveness.
Slung/packed/holstered/sheathed/brackets/concealed etc....



ACTUAL REPLY to the posters question goes here: LOL
DOES the 8.5 in give up velocity...yes. Does it give up too much?...if it means the difference between the gun being present or not then NO. If the bear gets you despite being shot YES.
Will a 14/18/20in barrel make a significant difference in this equation?...ABSOLUTELY wrt how portable/carry friendly and ultimately if it's there when needed. NOT LIKELY wrt to terminal ballistics when using it at the distance/scenario of a bear attack.

I am of the strong opinion that the 8.5in pump shotgun goes too far in compactness/portability by giving up capacity/ballistic performance and introducing the possibility of a hand in front of the muzzle when deploying. These are all significant compromises vs a 12.5~14in version that retains a full mag tube, better ballistics, and is safer/user friendly with the muzzle that extra few inchwes ahead of a fully racked slide/hand position..with a buffer if your hand slips forward.
Another issue is the reality of $$. A lot of people need to keep the expense of this device within reason...the 8.5's...decent ones....are double what a similar quality 12.5~14in can be. This affects whether it will be present.
A 12.5in full conventional stocked shotgun dehorned smooth (NO ninja devices protruding from itself) either slung or packed/holstered etc gets as close to the legal size as possible while remaining shootable and has decent capacity to deliver multiple rds (tap rack bang drill/FTF/multiple attackers/FTS etc).
A similarily sized centrefire rifle fits the bill too...although none of them are as capable of being rendered as smooth/snag proof as a 870...hammers are a ##### in sleeping bags!! LOL


Whew....had alotta coffee this am..and always luv a good bear defence thread:)
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problem is i have a tough time justifying the $ for something thats only 6 inches shorter than my 500
 
The 8.5" with the short Hogue is 26-3/4" OAL -- so as short as possible and still NR. The factory forend has a molded lip on the front end that acts as a handstop/ protects the left-hand from slipping ahead of the muzzle. As with any tool you have to use it for the task it was designed for. This must have been designed for fun, because it's loud and shoots out an entertaining fireball as much powder is still burning past the muzzle. Also a decent camp gun for bear defense.

In either case, we should recognize that this is a bludgeon not a scalpel, so balance is less important here where we are mounting and shooting straight ahead -- whereas balance is critical for say sporting clays or upland birds where we are swinging. In either case, the gun will usually feel "right" when the balance point is located equally between the two hands, with the head proportionally closer or farther from the right hand.

So with the Grizzly+Hogue, the short LOP puts the face close to the right hand and the left hand is close to the receiver, and everything is tighter. Once you adapt, it's very nimble. Similarly the lively front when balanced on the hinge pins or balance with my Mossberg 590A1 20" is also because my left hand is further out and my face is further back with a longer LOP, proportionately more spread out.
 
hey lots of good discussion going on and everyone seems to be putting a lot of thought in to their answers . as an aside and hopefully not derailing things i read were the fellow that was mauled by the grizzly and shot by his hunting partner is making a good recovery . he said the bear was first seen by him at seven yards and was on him before he could react in any way . his partner immediately hit it with a rifle round and the round caused the bear to back off slightly . he was kicking at the bear with his feet when a second round was fired and was struck . i doubt anyone was thinking about the fine points of the gun or the length of the barrel but just glad they had one with them .
 
^^^ Good point, a gun, nearly any gun is better than nothing.

Personal preference is a huge thing with type and size of firearms we choose to carry.

Pick the criteria that is most important to you and base your decision on that. For me portability and ease if carry was the main priority. Since I can't carry a handgun here I went with an 8.5" Dlask.
 
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