Sheep Changes Coming

I really do wonder how many big rams are on walls with no score in this province?

I'm convinced we as Albertan's don't want to beat our own chests as much as our cousins to the south, I wonder how many of the names of those 100 rams in the last 20 years are American names?
 
Tempest said:
Any way I have up to 2012. The book shows 3 out of 97 from 400. 3%. If you take out the mines its around 54 (some of the record locations I'm not that familiar with) so around 5 or 6%.

I do know of 3 that are not in the book plus this thing that was shot early this year (don't know a score on it but it's a pig). One of the three was at Willow Valley if memory serves but didn't get scored (norkie might remember) Plus you always hear of others around the campfire but that happens everywhere and I suspect there are rams across the province that could make it that are not listed such is life.

But I do know that if we want to talk trophy the average score in 400 would be there with any zone.

I hear this stuff about big mature rams that won't ever make full. Its true they are out there but it isn't like it's a majority of them and I doubt its even 10%. I don't have a problem with that cool to see and stabilizing for the herd. If herd health is good maybe an extra season can be added to go get some of those, can't do that now.

Anyway long night and day and I'm too punchy to add much. If something is going to be done I hope its full curl and not a draw. I hope they close down more roads into sheep country, I hope a lot of fires start by natural causes on the edge of sheep ranges and I hope I live long enough to get my 180 (solo from 400) :)
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And I'm sure there are rams from every WMU not scored nor entered so that point is really moot. I guess my point is that if full curl really is the magic bullet for trophy quality,WMU400 should be heads and tails above all others....it's not.....even if we eliminate November 438 and only look at recent years.

As for rams not making full curl, I can guarantee that far more than 10% do not have the horn configuration to make full curl and then we have to add in all those that broom. Then of course we have to factor in the additional natural mortality between 4/5 and full curl. It's not hard to imagine that 50% of rams that now make it to 4/5 curl would not make full curl. Some people estimate considerably higher. Hunter harvest opportunity would drop dramatically.
 
Tempest said:
I really do wonder how many big rams are on walls with no score in this province?

I'm convinced we as Albertan's don't want to beat our own chests as much as our cousins to the south, I wonder how many of the names of those 100 rams in the last 20 years are American names?
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I know I recognize an awful lot of names of Alberta hunters.....I suspect the number of American names would be lower than you think. A book ram is definitely something to be very proud of but no doubt many unscored rams are hanging on walls in Alberta and I know of several in Europe and the U.S.A. too. I don't look at entering an animal in B&C as beating one's chest but rather as sharing one's good fortune with the hunting community. I know I love looking at all the entries in Fair Chase magazine but I respect those that don't want to share their good fortune..
 
Tempest said:
I really do wonder how many big rams are on walls with no score in this province?

I'm convinced we as Albertan's don't want to beat our own chests as much as our cousins to the south, I wonder how many of the names of those 100 rams in the last 20 years are American names?
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I would be curious too. I know of a couple.

And my guess is proportionally the yanks would have more. It means lots to them evidenced by the world record holder spending a fortune on buying choice and exclusive tags just to have a crack at having the largest scoring ram....
 
guido said:
I was going to stay out of this, but what the he77.
Why not have trophy sheep ONLY available to residents????
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Its Alberta Guido - if they can legally figure out how to harvest your organs and pimp out your kids someone is working of the pilot project draft plan.

I agree 100% - if resident opportunity is at stake, roll back outfitter allotments to compensate first.

Sasky boys have that stuff figured over us :)
 
norskie said:
I agree 100% - if resident opportunity is at stake, roll back outfitter allotments to compensate first.

Sasky boys have that stuff figured over us :)
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I would love to see non resident tags for sheep completely eliminated. That would be the first change I would like to see before anything else...
 
crazy_davey said:
I would love to see non resident tags for sheep completely eliminated. That would be the first change I would like to see before anything else...
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Same here, but I wonder if they'll go the other way(give outfitters allocatoins in areas that will produce full curl rams sooner) to the APOS? You have to imagine they'll be a lobby for that if they are going to have a hard time selling tags for a few years.
 
medvedqc said:
wish the same for yukon .... only good places for residents only ....
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I had heard that the Yukon gov't or conservation groups bought the outfitter tags for the mountain range directly southwest of Whitehorse - because the conflict of residents hunting the area and outfitters. I heard there was a huge animosity because of the location (close for Whitehorse residents to travel too) and the desire of outfitters to occupy the area as some of the larger rams were killed there.

Is that true?
 
sheephunter said:
Non resident hunting is not even permitted in a good chunk of the area the proposed changes are in.
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A good observation. My question would be how is the age/ram/structure dynamic in the guided zones vs. the south where guiding is not permitted. From what I am hearing there doesn't seem to be as big a issue in areas where guiding hasn't happened. I would imagine the onus to kill rams would be elevated considerably if you had built a business that relied heavily on whether or not you made a kill.

I remember talking to a former guide in the 420's - and he told me that in the two zones they outfitted that they took the 8 rams they were allotted every year. Residents don't have success like that.

And if they are whining to the gov't because they find it increasingly difficult to kill rams for clients, I would suggest their business model is faulty and perhaps the gov't needs to step in and completely revise or better yet eliminate it.
 
norskie said:
A good observation. My question would be how is the age/ram/structure dynamic in the guided zones vs. the south where guiding is not permitted. From what I am hearing there doesn't seem to be as big a issue in areas where guiding hasn't happened. I would imagine the onus to kill rams would be elevated considerably if you had built a business that relied heavily on whether or not you made a kill.

I remember talking to a former guide in the 420's - and he told me that in the two zones they outfitted that they took the 8 rams they were allotted every year. Residents don't have success like that.

And if they are whining to the gov't because they find it increasingly difficult to kill rams for clients, I would suggest their business model is faulty and perhaps the gov't needs to step in and completely revise or better yet eliminate it.
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My understanding is that the outfitters strongly oppose this. Outfitters run about 50% success....residents about 6%. I doubt they were whining to government.
 
sheephunter said:
My understanding is that the outfitters strongly oppose this. Outfitters run about 50% success....residents about 6%. I doubt they were whining to government.
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I don't doubt they oppose this. It would effectively bring there harvest percentage down to close to nil. A few years of that would really hurt your business.

I think they would much rather see a draw. I would guess that would be the best fit for a business model to produce bigger rams and limit the amount of competition from residents.

The last time I checked the wildlife in Alberta was still a public resource belonging to all Albertan's and not the outfitting industry.

I agree with all of the others in the adage that I would way rather see full curl than draw if it has to come to that.
 
norskie said:
I had heard that the Yukon gov't or conservation groups bought the outfitter tags for the mountain range directly southwest of Whitehorse - because the conflict of residents hunting the area and outfitters. I heard there was a huge animosity because of the location (close for Whitehorse residents to travel too) and the desire of outfitters to occupy the area as some of the larger rams were killed there.

Is that true?
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now they didnt buy back any tags yet ( i want tom see conservation groups here doint that there is not that much money for such a thing). we are more for a closure for the outfitter there ( in that specific area 2 for non resident and 2 for residents tags nowhere else in NA you ll find that situation the other part is completely open with no limit ....) but seems some non residents are really in favor of no non resident hunting in their own province but not here how funny is it ????
 
medvedqc said:
now they didnt buy back any tags yet ( i want tom see conservation groups here doint that there is not that much money for such a thing). we are more for a closure for the outfitter there ( in that specific area 2 for non resident and 2 for residents tags nowhere else in NA you ll find that situation the other part is completely open with no limit ....) but seems some non residents are really in favor of no non resident hunting in their own province but not here how funny is it ????
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I believe there should be resident hunting only for some species and some areas in all the provinces/ territories.
Eg. Alberta. antlered mule deer, moose, sheep and antelope. Or any species with a high waiting period for draw.
 
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