1911 Hand Cannon :The 460 Rowland

[turbo_bird]

Has anyone actually tested these claimed velocities from this cartridge?

It does seem a little far fetched.

I've fired plenty of .44-Magnum loads. Mostly revolvers. But a few Desert Eagle autos too.

The gun in the video did not look anything like a .44-Magnum being fired. (Where's the fireball?)

I'll be putting some across a chronograph once I get set up to see how hard I can push them with published data.

According to Hodgdon's website, a 44 mag will push a jacketed 225 gn bullet to 1400 fps with 12.5gns of long shot and an overall length of 1.575". They say the pressure is 35200 psi.

The same source for 460 Rowland claims 1336 fps for a 230gn bullet with 12 gns of long shot and an overall length of 1.270". Pressure is claimed to be 39200 psi.

This seems pretty reasonable to me, considering the shorter cartridge and barrel of the 460 Rowland. It will be interesting to see how close it really is. It's not quite a 44 mag, but it's not too far off. With the same length barrel I think it would be a lot closer, especially when you consider that a revolver gets a free pass on an extra inch (at least) of barrel legnth, because the cylinder doesn't count when measuring, but the chamber of an auto does. I didn't find any data on long shot out of a 4" barrel, but H110 will push a 240 gn bullet to 1366 fps according to an article on real guns.
Kristian

 

[One Lung Wonder]

I dunno TB.

If velocities are where the boys say they are that thing IS a '.44 Mag' and no bones about it. All we are talking is ballistics, kinetic energy, velocity, impulse and momentum. I think the turd polishing comes in (assuming it's there at all) when the sales guys are exclaiming what a pussy cat this thing is to shoot. I looks to me like it has a bit of snap to it and could potentially be every bit as rude as the .44 Mag is too. And - if that is true, I prefer the way revolvers roll up under recoil much more than a rude snap with a muzzle flip thrown in. That's my out house opinion and not meant to slag any of you - so if this is your cup of tea enjoy with my compliments - but I'll stick with coffee, thanks!

Suffice it to say that until I get a positive evaluation from our own guys here - I will sit on the fence on this one. I'm an old hand and I have seen far too many miracle guns and cartridges in my time. .45 GAP anyone? 9mmx21? How about the .41 AE? The .454 Cassul was supposed to answer all the problems you never had too.

Good luck with those guns, boys. Range reports as soon as possible please.

 

[capp325]

10mm isn't hard on 1911's, new ones anyways.

That's a matter of some debate. If you shoot full power 10 mm rounds (as opposed to weak commercial loads), your 1911 will wear out a lot faster than if it was used to shoot .45ACP.

 

[jongun]

Seems like a very interesting concept. Like the idea of a true dual purpose pistol that can be a fun paper puncher at the range then packed as a wilderness carry gun. Possible new ATC pistol??? Would have to get a 1911 first though

 

[turbo_bird]

I dunno TB.

If velocities are where the boys say they are that thing IS a '.44 Mag' and no bones about it. All we are talking is ballistics, kinetic energy, velocity, impulse and momentum. I think the turd polishing comes in (assuming it's there at all) when the sales guys are exclaiming what a pussy cat this thing is to shoot. I looks to me like it has a bit of snap to it and could potentially be every bit as rude as the .44 Mag is too. And - if that is true, I prefer the way revolvers roll up under recoil much more than a rude snap with a muzzle flip thrown in. That's my out house opinion and not meant to slag any of you - so if this is your cup of tea enjoy with my compliments - but I'll stick with coffee, thanks!

Suffice it to say that until I get a positive evaluation from our own guys here - I will sit on the fence on this one. I'm an old hand and I have seen far too many miracle guns and cartridges in my time. .45 GAP anyone? 9mmx21? How about the .41 AE? The .454 Cassul was supposed to answer all the problems you never had too.

Good luck with those guns, boys. Range reports as soon as possible please.

I'm sure there is probably a bit of downplaying as to the amount of recoil, but I think if it comes straight back with the comp taking care of most of the muzzle flip, it shouldn't be too bad. I'm sure if I shoot it much I will want to add a beaver tail grip safety to it, but I will try it without first. It will be interesting to see.
Kristian

 

[Canuck44]

Kristian the 45-08 cartridge runs at about the same velocity/bullet combo and the recoil is definitely not excessive. Nothing like a 44 Magnum jolt.

Take Care

Bob

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Kristian the 45-08 cartridge runs at about the same velocity/bullet combo and the recoil is definitely not excessive. Nothing like a 44 Magnum jolt.

Take Care

Bob

What about racking that slide Bob? Is it a bear with that heavy recoil spring? How did your 45-08 hold up over time? That is the other thing I worry about. It's fine and dandy to have all this ballistic goodness but if your gun KABOOMS after a couple thousand rounds - are you any further ahead? I remember the hue and cry when Colt's first 10mm's started calving prematurely and have regarded them with suspicion ever since...

 

[jongun]

I'm strongly considering running the 45-08 cartridge once I get my Norc NP-30. Would definitely be of interest to hear of the long term affects of this cartridge on the pistol. Personally I'd probably be switching back and forth between the 08 and regular 45acp.

 

[Canuck44]

What about racking that slide Bob? Is it a bear with that heavy recoil spring? How did your 45-08 hold up over time? That is the other thing I worry about. It's fine and dandy to have all this ballistic goodness but if your gun KABOOMS after a couple thousand rounds - are you any further ahead? I remember the hue and cry when Colt's first 10mm's started calving prematurely and have regarded them with suspicion ever since...

Well from your post you seem to be against the use of the round but for what it is worth. The .308 case isn't about to let go at the pressures generated. The case does't when used in the .308 cartridge so no reason to think it will in the .45acp chamber. Gunnar has satisfied me the barrels will take the pressure so that is not an issue. I have had arthritis in my fingers for a few years now but have no problem pulling a 1911 slide back with a 22# recoil spring. Unless you have girly forearms the shooter should not have a problem. I have only reloaded the cases a few times. If they split they will go into the recycle bin just like .45acp, ,357Mag, 44 Mag, and 45Colt brass do. I would not envision shooting a couple a thousand rounds of 45-08 in two lifetimes let alone one. It is a specialty cartridge I load and carry when in the bush. The round doesn't shoot any different than regular .45acp except for a little more recoil. I don't feel a need to practice with it as I shoot my other 1911's with 45acp cartridges frequently. I also shoot 45Colt and .357mag full tilt loads. If the gun were to get shot loose from two thousand rounds I would just go buy another Norinco. There are lots of them around.

Colts are Colts problems and who is to say what their issues were with the 10MM. I have had none with the Norinco's and don't expect any. I respect a fellow like Gunnar. He spent his life working on guns and knows more about them than I do. I don't 2nd guess my Doctor and I don't question someone like Gunnar either. You have to understand what you know and realize what you don't know.

Take Care

Bob

 

[turbo_bird]

Kristian the 45-08 cartridge runs at about the same velocity/bullet combo and the recoil is definitely not excessive. Nothing like a 44 Magnum jolt.

Take Care

Bob

Good to hear. I'm not scared of a bit of recoil, but I don't really want to start flinching either. I've shot plenty of hot 357's out of my 66-1, and it starts to hurt the web of my thumb because that's where pretty much all of the recoil force is concentrated, probably because of the high bore of the revolver. It's light enough that you definitely know when you're shooting magnum loads.
Kristian

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Well thanks for that Bob. I am just trying to get a feel for this thing and your two cents is greatly appreciated! Fact is though I just don't trust all these new wildcat and proprietary calibres coming out - so many of them end up being ballistic twins of other existing cartridges and are really nothing exciting once the hype and hot air is done with. Then there's all the crap you hear on the internet that is for and against - and who knows where the truth lies. I tend to trust you guys here more so than the advocates trying to sell them.

If I am understanding everything correctly so far I think I would rather do the 45/08. You have all the same ballistic advantages plus the entertainment value of making your own brass... Hmmmm. Interesting stuff!

 

[Canuck44]

One Lung Wonder neither the 45-08 or the 460 Towland are particularly new. They both have been around for sometime. The caveat on the 45-08 is you have to have the .308 cases shortened to .898 THEN reamed out to .452 down to the webbing to accommodate the .452 lead bullet. Other than that the ballistics for both cartridges are virtually identical. I had a bunch of cases made up for me a few years back and have not lost or damaged any to date. Like I mentioned earlier I don't shoot many of them and have not fired any of my loaded rounds for sometime now. No need to really. Hot .45acp rounds are fun enough to shoot and all the practice you need. For what I use the cartridge for ranges will be really quite short. I shoot enough .357 mag etc to satisfy my need to hurt my hands.LOL

Guys who get into either cartridge will find both kill cardboard about the same as the .45acp only with more recoil and at additional cost. If you have a need for the power though both cartridges will fill a niche that is for sure.

I made up some "snake loads" for my 1911 .45acp as well. I still have most of the box. There are no snakes around here other than garter snakes and they do no harm to me.

Have a safe and Happy New Year

Bob

 

[Reaper665]

Looks like a good idea to put in a pistol calibre carbine. I do like 1911s though.

 

[Andy]

One Lung Wonder neither the 45-08 or the 460 Towland are particularly new. They both have been around for sometime. The caveat on the 45-08 is you have to have the .308 cases shortened to .898 THEN reamed out to .452 down to the webbing to accommodate the .452 lead bullet. Other than that the ballistics for both cartridges are virtually identical. I had a bunch of cases made up for me a few years back and have not lost or damaged any to date. Like I mentioned earlier I don't shoot many of them and have not fired any of my loaded rounds for sometime now. No need to really. Hot .45acp rounds are fun enough to shoot and all the practice you need. For what I use the cartridge for ranges will be really quite short. I shoot enough .357 mag etc to satisfy my need to hurt my hands.LOL

Guys who get into either cartridge will find both kill cardboard about the same as the .45acp only with more recoil and at additional cost. If you have a need for the power though both cartridges will fill a niche that is for sure.

I made up some "snake loads" for my 1911 .45acp as well. I still have most of the box. There are no snakes around here other than garter snakes and they do no harm to me.

Have a safe and Happy New Year

Bob

I see no reason why a person couldn't use 460 Rowland brass shortened to 0.898" or Starline 45 Super (or even 45 Auto +P) instead of shortened and reamed 308 brass. I think I'll get a 22 lb spring and try it.

As for the 460 Rowland, that's well-done "hype" on their website, but why does a person even need the 460 Rowland "kit"? The 460 Rowland has the same OAL as the 45 ACP, but the cartridge is lengthened not for strength, but to prevent it from being loaded in a non Rowland gun. Is the barrel they provide somehow stronger? The muzzle brake sounds useful, but does it really spare the gun excess abuse?

 

[Canuck44]

Andy the 45acp case will not take the pressures generated by the 45-08 or Rowland loads. The reason for the .308 case is is to get a stronger case at the webbing. A ,45acp case is designed for pressures around 16K PSI. The .45acp barrels will take the pressure but the cases won't. Shortening the Rowland case would only increase the pressure more and might result in a blown case. I assume this as I have not nor would I want to try testing the result.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Andy]

Andy the 45acp case will not take the pressures generated by the 45-08 or Rowland loads. The reason for the .308 case is is to get a stronger case at the webbing. A ,45acp case is designed for pressures around 16K PSI. The .45acp barrels will take the pressure but the cases won't. Shortening the Rowland case would only increase the pressure more and might result in a blown case. I assume this as I have not nor would I want to try testing the result.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

I didn't say 45 ACP, I said 45 Super or 45 Auto +P, but forget that.

A shortened 460 Rowland is just as strong where it counts as the full-length 460 Rowland. As for increasing pressure, the 460 Rowland and 45 ACP have the same loaded OAL - the bullet is not seated deeper, there's just 0.060" more brass up the side of the bullet, so the powder space is unaffected.

 

[turbo_bird]

Well I just got 4 lbs of longshot in the mail today. Unfortunately the packing wasn't exactly adequate, and the box of 500 bullets broke open, bullets everywhere. It sucks even more because they are cast bullets and most of the wax lube came off. Now they are pretty much useless to me. And to top it off one of the canisters of powder popped open in the box too, at least there isn't much powder missing. Now I'm just waiting on the stuff from the US.
Kristian

 

[Mark-II]

Well I just got 4 lbs of longshot in the mail today. Unfortunately the packing wasn't exactly adequate, and the box of 500 bullets broke open, bullets everywhere. It sucks even more because they are cast bullets and most of the wax lube came off. Now they are pretty much useless to me. And to top it off one of the canisters of powder popped open in the box too, at least there isn't much powder missing. Now I'm just waiting on the stuff from the US.
Kristian

Get yourself some lee liquid alox and tumble lube your bullets.

 

[09outlander]

Well I just got 4 lbs of longshot in the mail today. Unfortunately the packing wasn't exactly adequate, and the box of 500 bullets broke open, bullets everywhere. It sucks even more because they are cast bullets and most of the wax lube came off. Now they are pretty much useless to me. And to top it off one of the canisters of powder popped open in the box too, at least there isn't much powder missing. Now I'm just waiting on the stuff from the US.
Kristian

Who did you order the powder and bullets from? I'd like to know so I can avoid ordering from them in the future.

 

[turbo_bird]

So it looks like the package was dropped in shipping and burst open, losing the packing materials. It was retaped by canpar. I have ordered bullets from these guys before, and this is the first time I've had any issues. It's small shop, not a sponsor here. They are sending another box of bullets, but don't have any more of the powder, which is OK, the level in the one that popped open looks the same as a sealed one I checked.

And in other news, I got the slip from the post office that my conversion and brass is here for pickup, unfortunately I'm heading to camp for a bit and won't be able to get it until I get home.
Kristian