Sheep Changes Coming

Tempest said:
Every Alberta sheep hunter and manager is on the edge of the chair...

Well if someone would like to follow up for me that would be great. I guess we'll just have to wait til this "top" bio from the states ambushes our bios at the AGMAG meeting. I hope the herd will last til then.

Maybe he was told by whoever was at that meeting not to tell.
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Yeah funny how all the sharing that he seems to think he has done is nothing more than a "lets all hold hands" speech - while the one piece of real information provided by Patty started some passionate discussion about this and then he ducks and runs.

Or maybe it just has to do with the company you keep
 
guido said:
Funny, that was the first thing that came to mind reading these latest posts. For those that don't know, we Albertans had a "representative" at a certain table that was told not to tell. Great representation is all I have to say. If I recall correctly, he was a fellow employee of one of the gunnutz above.
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I hate to ruin a good conspiracy theory as I know how you love them but there were no secrets...it was an open public meeting. I was there as a concerned resident hunter....nothing more There were many more with no group affiliation. You were all welcome to be there. It was strictly an informational meeting and an opportunity for all sheep hunters to share thoughts and concerns. I just thought the way your com padres were arguing against it and telling me how foolish I was for considering it that they knew what I was referring to...surely such caring Alberta sheep hunters wouldn't go off half or even uncocked would they? Surely they wouldn't discount a potential threat to our Alberta sheep populations without being familiar with it would they? Heck I thought they must have been at the meeting as knowledgeable as they were pretending to be.
 
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sheephunter said:
I hate to ruin a good conspiracy theory as I know how you love them but there were no secrets...it was an open public meeting. I was there as a concerned resident hunter....nothing more There were many more with no group affiliation. You were all welcome to be there. It was strictly an informational meeting and an opportunity for all sheep hunters to share thoughts and concerns.
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You and I both know exactly what meeting Guido was referring to, and it has nothing to do with the current issue being discussed.

Knock it off with the Sheephunter smoke and mirror show as well. Seems to be a reoccurring theme with you any time issues such as this arise. If you want to keep this an informative thread, then give us some information if you have any, no more smoke and mirrors.

And quit trying to discredit people using information you supposedly have and they don't.
 
I wasn't trying to discredit anyone...they seemed to do just fine on their own in that regard. Regardless, I started this thread to keep Alberta hunters apprised of changes ESRD is threatening/promising to make to sheep hunting in 2016. In that vein I will continue to provide information as it becomes available. If the crew wants to continue arguing with every piece of information I provide whether they are familiar with the subject or not, I guess that's their prerogative. The nice thing is, I won't be able to read it!
 
sheephunter said:
I wasn't trying to discredit anyone...they seemed to do just fine on their own in that regard. Regardless, I started this thread to keep Alberta hunters apprised of changes ESRD is threatening/promising to make to sheep hunting in 2016. In that vein I will continue to provide information as it becomes available. If the crew wants to continue arguing with every piece of information I provide whether they are familiar with the subject or not, I guess that's their prerogative. The nice thing is, I won't be able to read it!
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don't want to discredit, but will in the same sentence. And right here is the champion of Sheep hunting and hunters on the Province. I don't think your fooling many on your true affiliations.

We had a name for these guys in the school yard - but usually had a hard time chatting with them as they were firmly planted behind the teacher's arse.

For what it is worth - I, Patty and Tempest have all talked to the regional sheep bio and he's not the devil as is being suggested. He is actually a pretty damn good guy with the best interests of sheep and hunters in mind.
He is being plagued with low budgets, lack of resources and a direction in government that doesn't allow the "Cadillac" management plan.

They will likely be moving ahead with change. APOS doesn't want full curl and I hear they are lobbying hard to the minister for a draw. By opposing this proposal there is a high likelihood that you will see a draw. Welcome to once in a lifetime tags.

And don't take my word for it - get informed yourself. Phone the bios and chat. Maybe fire Tempest a PM - he has assembled more information on this and completely understands the science. Not the "psuedo science" (smoke and mirrors) that is being brought forth at the last minute to try to derail the proposal either.

And one final thought - I have absolutely zero to gain from any changes. I do have something to lose if opportunity disappears.
Is that the same for all concerned?

http://www.apos.ab.ca/articles
 
sheephunter said:
Full curl may well be the best option...I certainly haven't discounted it but it seems pretty foolhardy to embrace it before we know the facts.

As for the disease comment....you may well be much smarter that a number of the top U.S. sheep bios but for now I'll keep my mind open. Do you even know the disease being discussed or are you just discounting it because I brought it up? Count down to norski getting on Google....10...9....8 You will likely want to edit your posts then :)
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What disease are you talking about here?
 
the spank said:
OK not into the arguing here but I have a question as someone who has never hunted sheep. What kind of table fare are they? Good? bad? mediocre?
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They (bighorn)are great if you care for them properly. It's a coarse and dense meat - and varies with age/condition.

Honestly the few I have tasted have exceeded my expectations by a great deal.
 
patty59 said:
What disease are you talking about here?
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Just so we have no confusion here, and I know I explained this earlier but it seems to have fallen on deaf or closed ears....I'm not saying this is having any influence on sheep populations but rather it is just another of many factors we need to consider when looking at sheep management in Alberta...especially when ESRD seems to have a desire to increase the number of 4-5 year old rams, the rams that most commonly move from herd to herd. It's nothing new but rather something bios are paying more attention to and developing better and more accurate means of testing for. In fact, Margo Pybus is a member of WAFWA, the group starting to pay more attention too it. It is quite simply Ovine Mycoplasma. The antibodies for it are present in Alberta bighorns so it's not hard to believe it's here. Some recent studies in the Clearwater indicated than there was significant mortality of lambs and one would be remiss not to consider this in addition to predators, aerial survey inaccuracy, etc. I appreciate you being the voice of reason in the darkness.


Some good info here: http://aawv.net/bighorn/3Besser.pdf
 
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I'd be in complete and utter shock if the local bios, especially the ones in the Southern part of the Province, have not taken into consideration the effect of pneumonia on wild sheep. We're not that far removed from a major die off. Although, it is my understanding that these types of disease are caused by domestic sheep being in contact with wild sheep, not unlike the most recent case in Yellowstone http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2014/dec/16/bighorn-sheep-dying-pneumonia-near-gardiner/

As far as I know there are no domestic sheep being grazed in the Rockies of Alberta. There is cattle and cattle have been linked to wild sheep disease, but the the cattle are removed from the forestry before the sheep move into those areas. This concern is one of the main reasons that moving wild sheep into the prairie badlands is a stupid idea and should be dismissed completely, but that's for another day.
 
Antibodies are in wild sheep as far north as Cadomin and Ram Mountain so they were exposed at some point.......

As for bios not considering it....they really have little idea what lamb survival rates are other than the comparison to the recent WSF funded aerial survey and it sounds like that was basically dismissed by ESRD. Definitely much more research needed in this area. Improved lamb survival, improved winter range and possibly predator control would undoubtedly help the situation a lot. I'm not trying to crap on the local bios...there are many good ones and ones that are friends to hunters. Unfortunately their hands are tied by budgets and the wishes of the senior bios....senior bios that believe trophy hunting is causing genetic harm to our rams. Next time you are talking with your local bio ask him about all the in fighting among the senior bios.....sit down and pour a coffee....it's a long tale.
 
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Does anyone have an information packet on the introduction of sheep into vacant ranges in southern AB?

I do not know about this specific case, but I have a good grasp of paleo-demography, until someone comes along and corrects me I would suggest that direct contact between wild and domestic sheep is not the only conduit for diseases to be shared between the two populations. I know there are a lot of issues with illness in BC, not sure if these animals range anywhere near their albertan cousins and could spread the illnesses.
 
My thoughts on this entire situation are that ESRD tried to ram (pardon the pun) changes down our throats in 2013 based primarily on the theory that our current 4/5 regulation was causing genetic harm to our ram population. That theory has been proven bunk many times yet they seem to be holding on to it. A unified opposition by the AGMAG groups prevented the changes despite threats by ESRD that a draw would be instituted if they didn't get in line. Serious, management by intimidation......are any of us willing to stand for that?

ESRD threw out these new changes for 2016 at the last minute at the December 4 AGMAG meeting with no backgrounder to support it. The AGMAG groups reacted negatively and demanded more information to support the changes. ESRD has promised to deliver that on March 4. The AGMAG groups seem fairly unified in their opposition of the changes unless ESRD brings some new evidence to the table to support the changes. ESRD has been spreading rumours in the background and offering up veiled threats to try and fracture the AGMAG coalition. The groups aren't biting. It seems history has taught them some valuable lessons.

The thing we know for absolute certainty is that winter range is shrinking due to encroachment and ESRD is doing very little to address that. We know that predators are at a much higher level when compared to the number of ungulates than they should be. Controlling them may or may not help. We have some serious concerns about lamb survival rates. We know populations are basically stable over the past 30 years. Hunter numbers have risen slightly and harvest has declined slightly but there are many factors to consider here including reduced access in some areas, the creation of additional non hunting areas and some tough winters. ESRD would like us to believe that the age of rams harvested is increasing and the horn size decreasing but this is based on some very suspect data collected by non-trained individuals for the most part. ESRD seems determined to have a post hunting season population that includes 5% legal rams in the herd. This was just a random number they created. There is no basis in science you need that number of rams to ensure a healthy herd. Plus, the methodology to assess population numbers is only 55% accurate. Some of these areas under the five percent are only one or two individuals short. Easily explained by poor data.

There changes are scheduled to come into effect in 2016 so nothing will be finalized until December 2015. We've got loads of time. There is no hurry to accept this change. There is loads of time to get the data the changes are being based on and to have it analyzed by some independent bios. This is already in the works. Once all of the data has been presented and analyzed, then an intelligent plan can be formulated. That plan should include range improvement and more study on lamb survival and it should look at predator control. It may or may not include additional hunter management.

In my personal opinion, if hunter management is required and it's a big if, considerations should be, in order:
1) The health of the bighorn population
2) Retaining hunter opportunity
3) Retaining harvest opportunity
4) Increasing trophy quality

The good thing is we have lots of time here and we may only have one chance to get this right and it's not a time to run around like Chicken Little screaming the draw is coming but rather a time to analyze all the data and come to a workable solution for all.
 
Sorry, Bighorn sheep.

I know that Alberta has provided bighorns for repatriation in S.D and Nevada, interesting that nothing has been done within the province to expand range.
 
conor_90 said:
Sorry, Bighorn sheep.

I know that Alberta has provided bighorns for repatriation in S.D and Nevada, interesting that nothing has been done within the province to expand range.
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Nothing in recent history and I'm not aware of it ever being done but am open to correction on that one. But, yes, we have provided many sheep to jurisdictions south of the 49th. I suspect that's the reason they are so aware of the health of the Cadomin herd as that's where the bulk of transplants have come from and I know extensive blood work is done on each individual. There has been some talk of moving some sheep into the badlands of the Milk River but it's all very preliminary with many issues to address. Overall, our populations are pretty stable in Alberta with winter range being the limiting factor. There are a couple areas that could possibly see some sheep transplants but I don't really see it as much of an issue. Right now they are trying to assess just how wide reaching the sync effect of Cadomin is and if it is to blame for some of the lower populations due to permanent relocation.
 
conor_90 said:
Sorry, Bighorn sheep.

I know that Alberta has provided bighorns for repatriation in S.D and Nevada, interesting that nothing has been done within the province to expand range.
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Alberta has been in full development mode for as long as I have been around. The habitat that they currently employ in being constricted with access, grazing and overgrowth - potential other habitat eg. river breaks would be a expensive lesson in how to make fat coyotes I'm afraid. I have heard there is a proposal being considered to relocate sheep from Cadomin to Ram Mountain - an area they have studied the crap out of and that has some issues. To get into that would require several more threads.

I agree with Sheephunter on the point - lots of room to enhance the current range (strategic grazing, controlled burns and access limitations), the problem is the will and the budgets just don't exist.
 
I think the main problem with the burns is they need perfect conditions because there has been a ton of development out there. The burns are actually pretty cheap to do all things considered.

Norskie is right, there is a proposal to move sheep from Cadomin to Ram mountain, I presume the reason is to feed the predators out there? (jk...kinda)

Moving wild sheep to the prairie badlands is a completely ludacris idea. For a multitude of reasons. I can't even believe there are people that thinks it actually a good idea.
 
patty59 said:
I think the main problem with the burns is they need perfect conditions because there has been a ton of development out there. The burns are actually pretty cheap to do all things considered.

Norskie is right, there is a proposal to move sheep from Cadomin to Ram mountain, I presume the reason is to feed the predators out there? (jk...kinda)
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I sat in on burn meeting a while ago and they definitely have the money but you are correct about conditions needing to be perfect plus there are a number of recreational and industrial users that need to be considered. Plus, they are still working on a study looking at whether burns are actually beneficial...I'm not making this stuff up. They seem unwilling at this time to consider other means of mechanical or chemical clearing, despite a willingness of NGOs to help.

I suspect the Ram Mountain transplant has more to do with providing new guinea pigs for testing than it does about improving sheep populations.
 
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