Picture of the day

Regarding Arnhem, I have an interesting book "It Never Snows in September". A view of the operation from the German side. They did a lot with limited troops and ad-hoc groupings. They also made their share of errors!

51J8MYFV24L__SS500__zps44acb068.jpg
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I guess it depends on one's definition.

Arseholes from someplace else land in your ancestral home and start shooting. If you're a Cretan, you grab whatever you have handy and kill them with it. They're serious people. If one defines "partisan" as a local civilian combatant, then a few of those men would have met the definition, but from what Weixler says, that wasn't what these people were.

http://www.fallschirmjager.net/Bundesarchiv/Kondomari/Kondomari.html

That's some hair-raisingly awful stuff. Glad to hear Oberleutnant Horst Trebes ended up catching one in Normandy.

this link has an interesting story about Brits in Crete http://www.ourprg.com/?p=21000
Its towards the second half of the podcast. There are numerous OTHER excellent historical podcasts worth listening to as well!!

As for PHOTOS of WWll ... this site will keep folks occupied for a few days (528 pages) ... it is excellent. http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=338&t=3918
 
Were those people partisans?

They don't look like partisans to me, but one man from the village said he had killed a German paratrooper. He knew he would be shot for that, but either he had done it and admitted it to try and avert a massacre, or he didn't but was hoping that if he said he had they would shoot him and leave the others alone. Either way, he was a hero. This is all detailed in the account of the photographer Karl Peter Weixler which I posted a link to. I suspect this is the man who said he had killed a paratrooper:
Kondomari
Otherwise, why would there be three photos of him? You can see the whole series of photos Weixler took here: ht tp://www.kreta-wiki.de/wiki/Kondomari

Notice that jacket that was said to have been found in one of the houses, for which the house was burned down? The hole seems to be in the side not the back of the jacket.
Kondomari


Weixler was indeed a hero: he tried to reason with the Oblt. Horst Trebes and with Haupt. Walter Gericke, commander of IV Fallschirmjager Sturm Regiment and Maj. Eduard Stenzler, commander of II Fallschirmjager Sturm Regiment. Weixler reportedly went so far as to help some of the villagers escape when Trebes "back was turned".

As for Trebes, it seems providence punished him creatively: ht tp://www.fallschirmjager.net/men/Trebes/trebes.html

Stenzler died of his wounds in October 1941. Gericke retired a General of the Bundeswehr.

After the war Brauer along with Generalleutnant der Infanterie, "The Butcher of Crete", Friedrich Müller was charged with war crimes by a Greek military court. He stood trial in Athens for alleged atrocties on Crete. He was accused of the deaths of 3,000 Cretans, massacres, systematic terrorism, deportation, pillage, wanton destruction, torture and ill treatment Brauer was convicted and sentenced to death on 09-12-1946. He was executed by gunfire at 5 o'clock on 20-05-1947, the anniversary of the German invasion of Crete.
ht tp://ww2gravestone.com/general/br%C3%A4uer-bruno-oswald

Anyone who knows the battle of Waterloo should know the name Blucher. Both cruisers named "Blucher" were sunk with great loss of life, one at Jutland in 1916 and one near Oslo in 1940. I see that three of the four von Blucher brothers were killed the same day on Crete in 1941. The one remaining brother was released from the military, but died in a hunting accident in 1944.

Fighting the wrong wars perhaps.

That was not my point. My point was that there were some good people (Koch, Schmeling and others) and not everyone was a nazi. You can keep painting them all with the same brush if you like, its just shortsighted.

Regardless of whether they were naughty or nice, they were one of the hardest and most elite units of WW2. The Canadians sadly never get any recognition for winning the battle of Ortona angainst the FJ's since everyone always forgets that there was an Italian campaign (its always about Normandy). By Comparison it took The Americans, the British, the Indians and finally the Polish fighting three separate battles to finally get them out of the town of Cassino and the monastery.

I’m not out to “paint” anyone, but it seems to be necessary to add some moral and historical context now and then, before we all get too hepped-up on how cool, keen and generally bad-ass it all seems from this distance.

“...hardest and most elite units...”, and so what? Does that make them admirable somehow? I’m sure Ghengis Khan’s mongols were a lot tougher than any fallschirmjager; are we supposed to admire them for it?

Sorry, but now that I’ve got a few decades under my belt, I’ve come to understand what makes people worthy of respect and admiration. A brave man once said that physical courage is the commonest of all currencies, and moral courage is the rarest. Find someone with both and you really do have a hero. Karl Peter Weixler had moral courage: he was able to judge independently and objectively what was right and what was not and then he had the courage to act on that knowledge, knowing that almost no one in his peer group would applaud his actions, and that he would endanger his own career and perhaps life by doing so. That is heroism of the best kind. A far harder thing to do for most people than some battlefield heroics.

Yes, there must have been lots of fine fellows in the fallschirmjagers and like millions of others, their lives were wasted for less than nothing. Let’s try to remember that. That said, their willingness to go along, play soldier and attack their neighbors caused many millions more to die, who were completely blameless. Who should we feel sorry for?

And while we’re in the Mediterranean, here’s an “anti-Nazi” “devout Catholic” General of Mountain Troops Lanz, presiding over the murder of 5000 Italian PoWs in Greece and then lying about it all through his trial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Lanz

Got 12 years for war crimes, but was let out after three in 1951, like dozens of others.

Arnhem: we covered that last time: betrayed by Christian Lindemann, aka “King Kong”, so-called Dutch resistance leader. Grelmar, you can get your Dad a copy of Oreste Pinto’s book: Vriend of Vijand: De ontmaskering van King Kong en vele andere spionnen in WO II and he can give Montgomery a rest for a while. Monty was an excellent trainer and "energizer" who got rid of most of the dead wood in the 8th Army officer corps. His problem was mostly the la-de-da, “business as usual old chap” officers he had to work with. He sent a lot of them home from North Africa who probably should have been reduced to the ranks. Churchill said more than once that they needed to shoot a few generals to encourage the others. He was probably right.

As for Patton, just have a look at the map showing who was facing the most German armour in 1944. It's easy to blast along through the French countryside when there's not much enemy around. That said, he definitely was an inspiring commander and understood how to make things MOVE.
 
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I knew one personally:

I knew an ex-fallschirmjager when I was stationed in Germany. He survived the war to become a Porsche dealer. I bought a car from him in 1965.
He was proud of his wings and would wear them on his business jacket. He took me out to the countryside for a spirited ride in the very first 911 to touch Hessian roads. Later we met over beers a few times. He was tall and he must've put on a lot of weight since his glory days. He was a good businessman, but he looked like he'd been a tough warrior. I never asked him if he'd been involved in any atrocities in Crete. At that time we still had a few WWII vets in our company. Those were interesting times.
We'd become NATO allies with Germany, and the Russians had become our common enemy. It's strange how quickly alliances can change-- Former mortal enemies became friends and former comrades bitter foes when political expediency was involved.
 
Sorry, but now that I’ve got a few decades under my belt, I’ve come to understand what makes people worthy of respect and admiration. A brave man once said that physical courage is the commonest of all currencies, and moral courage is the rarest. Find someone with both and you really do have a hero. (agreed)

Churchill said more than once that they needed to shoot a few generals to encourage the others. He was probably right. (He was in a position to fire the British ones if he wished to...)

As for Patton, just have a look at the map showing who was facing the most German armour in 1944. It's easy to blast along through the French countryside when there's not much enemy around. That said, he definitely was an inspiring commander and understood how to make things MOVE.
I think Patton's colourful and outspoken personality may have disguised some of his political insight/sense of justice (and his insight into the Communist threat) - he was outspoken about/and resisted the Morgenthau plan components that were integral to occupation directive JCS 1067 and ultimately I think he had some influence on Lucious Clay and George Marshall who helped to bring about the rejection/replacement of the Morgenthau plan.
 
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Thanks to AP for the treasure trove of Bundesarchiv pics, and RRCo. for the necessary perspective. War is about the worst thing we do as a species. It's a good idea to keep that in mind as we look at this "gee whiz" stuff.

Speaking of which, what the hell was this?

Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1971-042-10%2C_Calais%2C_besch%C3%A4digter_englischer_Panzer.jpg
 
Arnhem: we covered that last time: betrayed by Christian Lindemann, aka “King Kong”, so-called Dutch resistance leader. Grelmar, you can get your Dad a copy of Oreste Pinto’s book: Vriend of Vijand: De ontmaskering van King Kong en vele andere spionnen in WO II and he can give Montgomery a rest for a while. Monty was an excellent trainer and "energizer" who got rid of most of the dead wood in the 8th Army officer corps. His problem was mostly the la-de-da, “business as usual old chap” officers he had to work with. He sent a lot of them home from North Africa who probably should have been reduced to the ranks. Churchill said more than once that they needed to shoot a few generals to encourage the others. He was probably right.

*Shrug* My F in Law in his mid 80's now, and he's Dutch. Neither condition is conducive to being able to change his mind, on anything.

Monty was a great trainer, and organizer. I probably even mentioned that in my previous post.

He wasn't particularly tactically astute. Grand strategy? I'm not sure either way. But as for tactics, I'll stand by what I said - he was a bit plodding and conservative.

He was the right general at the right time in Africa. Turning morale and training around was, at the time, probably the single biggest thing that the British needed there. They had the numbers, and by later in the game, they actually had as good, possibly even better, tanks. Getting morale up was the missing piece of the puzzle that they needed in order to get things done.

And Monty was good at politics. In spite of pressure from above, he held off going on the offensive until he was damn good and ready. It takes a certain kind of grit to hold off against that kind of political pressure.

But as for Market Garden: Blaming the entire trainwreck on a single turncoat is a bit over-simplistic. It was a giant, complicated plan. Too many cogs had to line up perfectly in order for it to work. There were plenty of wrenches thrown into the gears by weather, mechanical breakdowns, poor intelligence about what German units were in the area. It's quite a long list of things that went wrong.

And that's where the failure lands squarely on Monty's shoulders, and he and his apologists have gone out of their way to blame this, and shirk responsibility for that, and blah blah blah. Over the decades, I've read a tremendous amount about Market Garden, and the arguments absolving Monty of responsibility for the disaster just don't hold up. It was his plan. He had plenty enough real world experience that he had no excuse for not realizing there were simply too many potential failure points for the plan as a whole to come off.
 
Thanks to AP for the treasure trove of Bundesarchiv pics, and RRCo. for the necessary perspective. War is about the worst thing we do as a species. It's a good idea to keep that in mind as we look at this "gee whiz" stuff.[/IMG]

Actually, war fare is what the human species does BEST! Human history is a chronological account of our wars, to include the Bible. Look back over the last 100-150 years of 'modern history'. There have been only brief periods when we have taken breaks to re-org and re-arm before the next major blood letting. All that changes is the weaponry and the enemy of the day.

In that period of time, Germany has been one of the prime protagonists, seeking to re-arrange the map of Europe to suit the geo-political needs of the time. All of the major European powers had a go at it, building global empires - France, Britain and even the US around the turn of the 20th century, venturing into Cuba, the Philippines, Central America and even China.

"Winston could not remember a time when Oceania had not been at war with either Eurasia or Eastasia. It didn't really matter which." "1984" by George Orwell
 
*Shrug* My F in Law in his mid 80's now, and he's Dutch. Neither condition is conducive to being able to change his mind, on anything.

Monty was a great trainer, and organizer. I probably even mentioned that in my previous post.

He wasn't particularly tactically astute. Grand strategy? I'm not sure either way. But as for tactics, I'll stand by what I said - he was a bit plodding and conservative.

He was the right general at the right time in Africa. Turning morale and training around was, at the time, probably the single biggest thing that the British needed there. They had the numbers, and by later in the game, they actually had as good, possibly even better, tanks. Getting morale up was the missing piece of the puzzle that they needed in order to get things done.

And Monty was good at politics. In spite of pressure from above, he held off going on the offensive until he was damn good and ready. It takes a certain kind of grit to hold off against that kind of political pressure.

But as for Market Garden: Blaming the entire trainwreck on a single turncoat is a bit over-simplistic. It was a giant, complicated plan. Too many cogs had to line up perfectly in order for it to work. There were plenty of wrenches thrown into the gears by weather, mechanical breakdowns, poor intelligence about what German units were in the area. It's quite a long list of things that went wrong.

And that's where the failure lands squarely on Monty's shoulders, and he and his apologists have gone out of their way to blame this, and shirk responsibility for that, and blah blah blah. Over the decades, I've read a tremendous amount about Market Garden, and the arguments absolving Monty of responsibility for the disaster just don't hold up. It was his plan. He had plenty enough real world experience that he had no excuse for not realizing there were simply too many potential failure points for the plan as a whole to come off.


"...in his mid 80's now, and he's Dutch. Neither condition is conducive to being able to change his mind," ...
:agree:
by "single turncoat" do you refer to Lindemans or Bernhard?
 
Apparently, these are engineers of the "Jewish Brigade", having a brewup with a recently pacified Panther as a windbreak. Quite the pastoral scene...

it looks like the Panther is being/has been dismantled ...... spares? scrap? curiosity? building their own tank? a field expedient "chop shop"?

EXCELLENT reading!
 
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^ How are you interpreting the quote? Are you saying he condoned the action? Try to keep things in their proper context please.

Don't be a simpleton. If you recognize the statement, you know the context. We are being counselled not to let the fact worry us.

Difficult to do when we are continuously bombarded with in-your-face news coverage of the current crop of wars and atrocities around the globe.
 
We haven't much touched on navy stuff. Ever heard of U 2540?

Here she is back in the day:

006_WB-1.jpg


003_WB-2.jpg


Scuttled at the end of the war, raised 12 years later, used by the Bundesmarine as a research vessel, retired in 1982 (!) and now comfortably resting in Bremerhaven and open for tours.

AAF-86.jpg


More info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_Wilhelm_Bauer

Not many wartime Unterseeboots left. She's one of four.
 
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