Bought the dream rifle, or bought the farm, today.

Ardent said:
"But honey, it's free." Along with losing money when not hunting buffalo, sheer brilliance.
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While the man never smiles, what Dogleg doesn't know about managing women wouldn't fill a spent .22 casing ;)

As for the rifle, Angus -- OMFG!!!! There aren't words to convey my appreciation for what you've just gone out and done.

You, my friend, just won the lifetime achievement award for NUTTIEST GUNNNUT EVER! And we all wish we were you :d
 
I'll be sure to, want to run the same setup as the stopping rifles wood block tipping. I don't want to put the pressure on myself but from popping primers I doubt I've ever handled anything as fast as a single trigger double that points like she does. Only part I'll be off on is soon, flying back and forth to work (where I shoot) for a good while and I don't trust Air Canada regional baggage enough.
 
Ardent said:
I'll be sure to, want to run the same setup as the stopping rifles wood block tipping. I don't want to put the pressure on myself but from popping primers I doubt I've ever handled anything as fast as a single trigger double that points like she does. Only part I'll be off on is soon, flying back and forth to work (where I shoot) for a good while and I don't trust Air Canada regional baggage enough.
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I wouldn't want to be on the other side of the lost baggage counter...
 
That's as good as it gets right there.

And, it may be "it" for your gun collection for sometime, but really where does one go from there? I understand that variety is the spice of life, but once you own a piece like that, nothing will ever come close to being satisfying. Every rifle you pick up from now on will seem like a club and will pale in comparison.

Can't wait to see some pictures(and maybe some video if we're lucky) of the Holland in action.

It's not very often that we acquire something that truly deserves the moniker of "heirloom". When we do, it's something very special.
 
Ardent said:
Quite right, it is mechanical and moves to the next barrel without requiring recoil, which I was happy to find, Dogleg had enquired earlier. I too prefer a single trigger and same for my side by side shotguns, I don't mind a double trigger set up, but a double rifle with a single is as fast and simple as a rifle can be. The single trigger option is quite rare and really attracted me to this gun, add to that it being a .375 Flanged mag, a double chambering I'd been considering for some time view as an ideal all rounder and there was no way I could let it pass.
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Ardent said:
I'll be sure to, want to run the same setup as the stopping rifles wood block tipping. I don't want to put the pressure on myself but from popping primers I doubt I've ever handled anything as fast as a single trigger double that points like she does. Only part I'll be off on is soon, flying back and forth to work (where I shoot) for a good while and I don't trust Air Canada regional baggage enough.
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I don't think the single trigger will be the big speed advantage you think it will be. As modest as the recoil of that rifle will be, it still has recoil, and it still takes time to acquire the target, and I can't see how you can acquire the target in less time than it takes to slide your hand back on the grip 1/2" to the rear trigger. I think the only real advantage to the single trigger is that you don't have to adjust your grip on the gun.

As far as being simple and reliable, no single trigger can be as simple in construction as the double trigger setup. The fundamental principal of the double gun, rifle or shotgun, is to have two basically independent mechanisms attached to a single stock. Taking those two independent mechanisms and making them both dependant on a single, complicated trigger mechanism, seems to me to be a step in the wrong direction. As you've said, single triggers on double rifles are rare, and there might be a reason for that. I know about Sutherlands single trigger Westley Richards, and how it still seems to be working today ( although I don't know the last time it was actually fired), but if you did a poll of English smiths, I would wager they get a lot of single triggers back for repairs.
 
I'd be inclined to agree on a $6000-15000 rifle but I can't see that on a royal H&H. Everything I've read supported it being a robust and reliable design. Most of us never having the chance to use one have to rely on written review. If I remember correctly Taylor endorsed the option when specifying the Messrs HH as the makers.
 
The advantage a single trigger system has is not that it allows you to fire the second barrel without adjusting your grip, in fact riflemen with large hands can fire double trigger rifles without shifting their grip. The true advantage the single trigger system has is its uniformity of feel. It always takes me longer to fire the second barrel with the duel trigger system, because the second trigger has more creep or is heavier than the first. If the condition was reversed, the lag in firing time would still exist because of a concern of shooting early, so I'd be stacking pressure on the trigger more slowly. Neither case is conducive to top performance.

With a mechanically reset single trigger, each press of the trigger feels exactly the same as the previous one. Further, like when firing a semi-auto rifle, you do not break contact with the trigger, you simply ease the pressure on the trigger until it moved far enough forward to reset, then begin to stack pressure on it again until it broke the second shot. Your entire concentration could then can be put on target acquisition and sight picture, and the shot would just happen when it needed to.

At the time of 6 month long safaris, and commercial ivory hunting, there might have been an argument for a redundant firing system, but in today's world our adventures are shorter in duration, measured in days rather than months or even years. If a rifle fails during a modern safari, chances are another will be available. Even so, I see no reason why a single trigger on a double rifle would be any more likely to fail then the single trigger on a bolt gun. I've seen some rifles that have seen hard use, under harsher conditions than anything an African hunter's rifle would be exposed to, yet its seldom the trigger that fails.
 
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9.3mauser said:
I don't think the single trigger will be the big speed advantage you think it will be. As modest as the recoil of that rifle will be, it still has recoil, and it still takes time to acquire the target, and I can't see how you can acquire the target in less time than it takes to slide your hand back on the grip 1/2" to the rear trigger. I think the only real advantage to the single trigger is that you don't have to adjust your grip on the gun.

As far as being simple and reliable, no single trigger can be as simple in construction as the double trigger setup. The fundamental principal of the double gun, rifle or shotgun, is to have two basically independent mechanisms attached to a single stock. Taking those two independent mechanisms and making them both dependant on a single, complicated trigger mechanism, seems to me to be a step in the wrong direction. As you've said, single triggers on double rifles are rare, and there might be a reason for that. I know about Sutherlands single trigger Westley Richards, and how it still seems to be working today ( although I don't know the last time it was actually fired), but if you did a poll of English smiths, I would wager they get a lot of single triggers back for repairs.
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You do have a very fair point, but allow me to counter with my thoughts. I've talked with a couple makers actually when I was considering a bespoke, and from each received the response to paraphrase that, "Singles are every bit as good in our eyes, but tradition favours the double trigger. Your call." It's about a $10,000 option on average too, unfortunately. It is impossible to argue that a double trigger doesn't hold intrinsic reliability through redundancy, you'll never get that with a single, and I've hunted dangerous game with my double trigger double of course happily. So there is certainly nothing lacking there, we are solidly into the "preferences" realm, without a strong argument against the double triggers.

However, the double triggers remained my last possible gripe with my double over my repeaters, as I'd proven to myself I could shoot the double as far and further than I need to even without even attaching the scope mounts yet, which would truly get me beyond the ranges I consider sporting and fun. I shoot the doubles like I do a shotgun, things just seem to fall over when I shoot at them and I don't need to focus so hard, instinct takes a lot of the slack. Removing that trigger transition, that as I like to think I manage alright as in the video below with the .470 with two hits in about half a second, is just one less step and link in the change that renders the double that absolute instrument of instinct. There is nothing left to do, to operate the gun, than focus on your target and put the slugs where desired, all thinking is focused on aiming, and hitting, no subconscious movements are required.

Recoil of the .375 Flanged is in the nil category amongst my present preferences of rifles, and I can get two aimed shots away from the .470 routinely in well under a second, when I time it with the shot timer, it comes in around half a second actually as mentioned above. In that is a trigger transition, and that certainly doesn't speed me up. Remove the trigger transition, cut the apparent recoil in half, and I'm probably holding the instrument with which I'll never better a two target instinctive shoot. That was the level I was after when I made the leap to buy my Royal. I did well on her, and it had every feature I hoped for, ejectors, leaf sights, and the single trigger in my all time favourite cartridge. Bespoke was out the window I couldn't even be bothered as this was my gun already.

Trigger transition and snap shooting the .470 double at 1:00 min into the vid,


Finally I feel the odds of the single failing, especially from a maker and with a design as well crafted as H&H's system (their revised "Patent Single Trigger" is still the same system used today I've learned, so it's a century proven and counting), then advice from makers, renders me completely satisfied and confident in the lockwork. I'm not confident, but rather certain I'll never have to send her to H&H for single trigger repair, and I searched like mad to find examples on the nitroexpress and shotgun forums etc where there are owners H&H's to find an example of a single trigger failing and I both found almost no single triggers, and absolutely no reports of failures or issues. Doesn't prove much granted! Boomer has a strong line of thinking on the trigger feel too, for even on English best guns, there is often a discernible difference in trigger feel- if nothing else from the different trigger geometry and leverage differences. Even where the trigger contacts the finger and is pulled from changes the apparent effort and feel. My Merkel feels extraordinarily different trigger to trigger, but granted it's not on the same plane as the Royal.

All in all the single represents the absolute epitome of my personal ideal for the double, that is an effortless, mindless, instrument of absolute speed shooting surgery devoid of protrusions, hang ups, distractions, or anything unpleasant really... It puts you in the moment with nothing to do but your job on the game at hand, I love that and for me personally a single trigger polishes that moment ever so slightly further. This is a good discussion, and nobody is "right" and most certainly so not I, it's all down to our personal preferences.
 
I'm glad you posted that video again, it saved me from having to use the search function. The .470 is impressively fast compared to the bolt guns.

In response to Boomer's post: I look at not shifting the trigger hand as a shooting fault that needs to be corrected. I've tried both methods, moving the hand and moving just the trigger finger, and not only is shifting the hand faster, it prevents a nasty rap on the knuckles. This is with light English game guns. I'm at the point where I'm not even aware of shifting my hand when I'm shooting at birds or clays, and the difference in trigger pulls has never been a problem either. But that is wing shooting. I think if you're in a situation that requires those extremes in shooting speed, you'll be pulling on the trigger much like a shotgun, not making a delicate squeeze.

The original trigger design for Mausers and Winchester M70's is actually stupidly simple. There just isn't a lot that can go wrong.

The trigger on a bolt rifle has one job to do: release the sear. On a double, it must release the sear on one barrel, somehow shift over to fire the other barrel, then reset itself. Plus adding barrel selection adds another layer of complexity. Just trying to figure out how some of them operate can give you a headache. I'm friends with an English trained smith that has a disdain of single triggers, but then the ones he sees are the ones that need fixing. So perhaps that's colouring my judgement. I'll leave off with the opinion of someone a lot more experienced than myself:

"... having seen innumerable single trigger shotguns, some of which were virtually new, that had faulty mechanisms, either through poor workmanship or, in the case of older guns, extreme wear, I can only conclude that the double trigger mechanism is still the safest and most reliable" Christopher Austyn, Classic Sporting Rifles.

Ardent, I can certainly appreciate the pull of personal preference. As much as I love my double guns, when it comes to rifles, I think I'm essentially a Mauser man. There's no real logical reason for me to dislike other rifles, except they're not Mausers!

I'm looking forward to a range report on the Holland. Watching that video again makes me think there should be a reload segment in there... fastest time for 4 shots, then compare that to 4 shots straight from a bolt rifle. When the snow leaves, maybe by May, I might take the 9.3mm out and see how fast I can get 4 into a target, and maybe compare our times.
 
Ahah! See now you've outted me; I am a homely reloader. I like to think I can shoot and hit fast, but reload... "Sigh" is the best word I have right now. I attempted a quick reload in the brief No.1 only video, and I cringe when I watch it, even I'm wondering when on earth that second shot is finally going to come as I watch it. I need to practice in a dark room half cut on good whiskey for a few weeks of evenings with dummies and gain the courage to attempt anything appearing well versed on video. I can envision the response right now to the video,

"Oh! Well that was quick shooting. Ok. Now what exactly is happening? This fellow purports to know his way around a gun, no? Is he checking the headstamp on the cartridges? Perhaps he's closed his eyes for a challenge? Oh! There we go two more quick shots and... oh dear not again."

I have to admit I'll never hit four targets with a double as fast as I can with a bolt, so I suppose I have to argue "Two is enough.", which I'm not sure is true sometimes. But damned if I don't prefer the doubles hands down anyways. ;)
 
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