45-90 reload questions

toddh

toddh

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St. Thomas, ON
Good morning all,

I have recently been aquiring the components needed to reload a Winchester model 1886 that was made in 1891 chambered in 45-90 wcf.

This rifle has been in my Dad's possession since 1978 when he aquired it from his late father in law. When he received it, it had been hanging on the wall for a number of years and had a layer of dust protecting it.
My Dad has never fired it or knows when it was fired last, mostly due to the unavailability of loaded ammunition.

This is where I get involved. I would like to shoot this rifle, and more importantly, have my Dad shoot this rifle that he has owned for more than half his life.

My greatest concern is that we can shoot this rifle safely! We had it looked over by a gunsmith, who says it safe to shoot.
Originally it was obviously a black powder cartridge, I do not want to use black powder in this rifle due to the corrosiveness nature of bp. I would like to keep chamber pressures well below what this gun was designed for, which I believe was in the area of 28000 psi.

I have a set of Lyman 45-90 dies, 350 grain cast lead bullets at .459, RCBS 45 basic brass at 2.4 inches in length. I have made a dummy round and it chambers at 2.705. I had to burry the bullet well past the cannelure to get it to chamber, and therefore there is no crimp. I am not too concerned about the crimp because I dont plan on using the tube magazine.

This gets to my question...
With there being very little data available for 45-90, what do you guys use for powder and how much?

I have read over the Hodgdon site data for 45-70. From what I understand, an equal bullet, and powder in the longer 2.4" case should result in lower chamber pressure, but how much? I have also checked some older manuals I found online in pdf format but there wasn't any 45-90 data present.

I am partial to using H4895 because I already have some. I have ranged my starting point at some where between 35-40 grains. Again as I have mentioned, I would like to keep the chamber pressure in check and bullet speeds around 1200-1400 fps.

Any help, or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
Todd
 
I've loaded mine for my '86 with Black Powder (BP being your best option) H4895, and IIRC IMR4198 if you're so inclined. Read the sticky on the first page of this forum on loading smokeless in antiques before you stray down there far. There is more to it than just the overall pressure. Somewhere I found published data for my H4895 load (in an older Hornady or Lyman manual) but for the life of me I cannot find the source right now:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/249992-Smokeless-in-Antiques

Gennnerrraallly speaking the .458 win mag has a very similar case capacity. That's all I'll say, use that knowledge in your research. I'm not suggesting to use .458 WM data, just that using that as a triple check on your pressures. ie I found my H4895 load data and a cross check on the .458 data confirmed that it should be safe. But as I say, read that sticky - there is more to it than just pressure.

Again, best results can be expected from a 300 grain round. This was the .45-90-300 Winchester Express back when she came out and the barrel had a twist rate intended for that shorter bulet. 405 grain boolits in mine don't perform as well, although my barrel is very very rough. Hope that helps.

Avoid jacketed bullets in these old soft barrels, IMHO. Black powder and lead with a non-petroleum lube are the best way to go. Loading the Holy Black is a whole other topic, read up on that carefully (lots of info right here on this forum on that topic) if you are going to try it.
 
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I use "Springfield Trapdoor" (45-70) loads in my 45-90.

You'll be able to use a full or near full (60.0 grs) of H4895 with a 350 gr bullet.
 
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Now that you say that, looking back that was my starting point as well. Then I read up on the subject in that sticky and now I'm maybe more cautious than I need to be but....

Black Powder works great in any event. I tend to load it down with corn meal filler.
 
Toddh: According to Mike Venturino's: "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West", the WCF 45-90 was originally loaded with a 300 grain lead bullet, at 1480 fps velocity. A 350 grain bullet should work, but won't likely give best results. During his testing of this cartridge, in addition to black powder he also used this smokeless powder load: Sierra 300 grain jacketed hollow point, over 30 gr. XMP5744. His recorded velocity was 1372 fps. If you have any SR4759 available, this powder should give very close to the same results. For cast lead bullets, he used an RCBS #45-300 FN bullet, which, according to him, weighed 324 grains. This bullet he shot over black powder or Pyrodex.
Here is his lead bullet data: Goex Ffg: 82 grains. Velocity average: 1516 fps.
Goex Cartridge: 85 grains. Velocity average: 1506 fps
Pyrodex Select: 55 grains. Velocity average: 1514 fps
As a matter of interest: Both XMP5744 and SR4759 are commonly used in the 45-70 and similar cartridges, for cast bullet loads. I generally use SR4759 in my 1886 (45-70), as it seems to be more readily available. Also Varget.
Hope this is useful.
 
Hodgdon Reloading data Center has a number of smokeless loads for lever action or trapdoor 45-70 - which I think would be a reasonable starting point for you. Pressures will be somewhat lower in the larger case, but will certainly not be over pressure and you can work up a bit if you want.
Also found some old data on Cast Boolits archives - scroll down towards the bottom of the thread in this link: http://forum1.aimoo.com/Cast___Boolits__/category/45-90-Loads-1-442052.html
If you google "45-90 reloading data" there is some other info on various websites.
 
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Andy said:
I use "Springfield Trapdoor" (45-70) loads in my 45-90.

You'll be able to use a full or near full (60.0 grs) of H4895 with a 350 gr bullet.
Click to expand...

Forgive me for saying, but that seems a mite, uh, stiff. I got this off another BPC forum...

Around 49 grains of IMR 4198 with 300 jacketed bullets should put you in the neighborhood of 2000 or just a bit more depending on barrel length. Sierra has 49.9 listed as the accuracy load for their 300 with that the IMR version of 4198 for 2100 fps in a 22" barrel. They also show it at lesser quantities in the less stout actions for accuracy loading. I have been pleased when using 4198 with 300s.

Taking into account the age of your rifle, I'd be most inclined to stay on the 'kinder' side of loads, but you go right on ahead with your 60gr loads. I live almost four thousand miles away, so I'LL be good,

tac
 
tacfoley said:
Forgive me for saying, but that seems a mite, uh, stiff. I got this off another BPC forum...

Around 49 grains of IMR 4198 with 300 jacketed bullets should put you in the neighborhood of 2000 or just a bit more depending on barrel length. Sierra has 49.9 listed as the accuracy load for their 300 with that the IMR version of 4198 for 2100 fps in a 22" barrel. They also show it at lesser quantities in the less stout actions for accuracy loading. I have been pleased when using 4198 with 300s.

Taking into account the age of your rifle, I'd be most inclined to stay on the 'kinder' side of loads, but you go right on ahead with your 60gr loads. I live almost four thousand miles away, so I'LL be good,

tac
Click to expand...



You are comparing 2 totally different powders.
 
I came to the forum looking for similar information if anyone can help out (rather than posting a new thread)..

My buddy just purchased a interesting gun at the gun show the other day. It's a 12 gauge lower with a 45/70 barrel. The guy who sold it to him said it was a black powder barrel. Should he only use 45/70 black powder cartridges in that rifle? I suggested he take it to a smith as it seems really shady to me... he paid like 100bucks for it lol...

The gun looks basically like the 12gauge backpacker that CanAm sells except with a 45/70 barrel... Also, who sells black powder 45/70 ammunition?
 
Good morning,
Thanks to all who replied. Both on the board and in pm form.
I am going to load a few up today to try out tomorrow.
I will post results in a couple of days.
Thanks again.
Todd
 
Here is a pic of the rifle...
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Fine old rifle. Whatever you do, DO NOT refinish that rifle; it will radically reduce the value. Keep us posted on how it does at the range. I had a 45-90 once. 5744 was my favourite powder, under a 330 grain cast Gould bullet for 1,500 fps.
 
Good afternoon,
We finally got out today with the old 45-90.
We shot 5 rounds, 350 grain cast lead, over 40 grains of H4895. No chrono, so no idea about bullet speed but it was awesome that my Dad and I finally
got to shoot this old girl.
Thank you very much to all you guys who responded to my post with your replies and personal messages.
And to 38-55, dont worry, this old girl wont be going in for a makeover.
Todd
 
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