Discussion Why 308 and not NEW

Xikarzr

Xikarzr

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I've been poking around recently on you tube, gun forums, websites, etc..... Trying to gain as much knowledge about precision long range shooting and tactical shooting that I can get. I've watched everything from Rex reviews , 8541 tactical, nutnfancy, as well as less well known you tubers. I have read reviews and opinions on snipers hide, here as well as other locations. I quickly realized that my 270wsm hunting rifle is so far off what most people use in tactical or long range precision shooting applications, that it would not be wise to try and use the action and barrel in a chassis. I fully realize it's new in terms of calibres, and there is less than adequate amount of field info on it for these applications... BUT when I look through ballistic calculation programs on my computer and phone the 308 appears so out matched by the 270wsm even when comparing match ammo from the wsm to litz loads on the 308. Note... I'm just talking ballistically. So even looking at some other calibers like 300win mag or 7mm the BC and other numbers shine in comparison.

So my question is this... .308 seems like it is a compromise to me, and that there are better options out there but they don't seem to be taking off? Why? Why does the 308 still have such a strong hold on the market? I assume cost, availability, reloading data, etc etc , but I would have thought that stuff would be less of a factor over time? There are some people so willing to spend massive money on chassis and high end glass to gain little bit of an edge, but then use a bullet that seems dated to me in terms of ballistics because it's "cheaper" or ther is more info? The 7mm or 7wsm or 270wsm are a little more money for sure but it's not like a box of .338 LM or anything?



I was not sure which category forum to post this discussion. Move if required.
 
Xikarzr said:
I've been poking around recently on you tube, gun forums, websites, etc..... Trying to gain as much knowledge about precision long range shooting and tactical shooting that I can get. I've watched everything from Rex reviews , 8541 tactical, nutnfancy, as well as less well known you tubers. I have read reviews and opinions on snipers hide, here as well as other locations. I quickly realized that my 270wsm hunting rifle is so far off what most people use in tactical or long range precision shooting applications, that it would not be wise to try and use the action and barrel in a chassis. I fully realize it's new in terms of calibres, and there is less than adequate amount of field info on it for these applications... BUT when I look through ballistic calculation programs on my computer and phone the 308 appears so out matched by the 270wsm even when comparing match ammo from the wsm to litz loads on the 308. Note... I'm just talking ballistically. So even looking at some other calibers like 300win mag or 7mm the BC and other numbers shine in comparison.

So my question is this... .308 seems like it is a compromise to me, and that there are better options out there but they don't seem to be taking off? Why? Why does the 308 still have such a strong hold on the market? I assume cost, availability, reloading data, etc etc , but I would have thought that stuff would be less of a factor over time? There are some people so willing to spend massive money on chassis and high end glass to gain little bit of an edge, but then use a bullet that seems dated to me in terms of ballistics because it's "cheaper" or ther is more info? The 7mm or 7wsm or 270wsm are a little more money for sure but it's not like a box of .338 LM or anything?



I was not sure which category forum to post this discussion. Move if required.
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There are more options popular today. 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm all gaining popularity.

The biggest reason you do not see 270 and others gaining popularity is bullet selection. With comparatively "heavy" bullets for each caliber gaining the ballistic advantage (i.e. 115gr-6mm, 140gr-6.5mm, 180gr-7mm), the heaviest 277 bullets still fall on the light side (140-150gr)

There has been more of a push for shooting "heavies" from 308s recently to gain this advantage.
Basically it boils down to bullet manufacturers not keeping up with the trends and taking cues from rifle companies producing fairly slow twist barrels.
 
I'm not a 308 guy but one big plus for 308 is barrel life. Your 270WSM would likely only be good for 1000 rounds. After that the velocity drop would make it less appealing even if it still shoots great.

That being said a 270WSM pushing bergers new 170gr bullet would be a great long range caliber. Just guessing but it would likely be super sonic to 1600ish yards.
 
arcticcathonda said:
There are more options popular today. 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm all gaining popularity.

The biggest reason you do not see 270 and others gaining popularity is bullet selection. With comparatively "heavy" bullets for each caliber gaining the ballistic advantage (i.e. 115gr-6mm, 140gr-6.5mm, 180gr-7mm), the heaviest 277 bullets still fall on the light side (140-150gr)

There has been more of a push for shooting "heavies" from 308s recently to gain this advantage.
Basically it boils down to bullet manufacturers not keeping up with the trends and taking cues from rifle companies producing fairly slow twist barrels.
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This is an interesting take, makes a lot of sense to me.
 
K0na_stinky said:
I'm not a 308 guy but one big plus for 308 is barrel life. Your 270WSM would likely only be good for 1000 rounds. After that the velocity drop would make it less appealing even if it still shoots great.

That being said a 270WSM pushing bergers new 170gr bullet would be a great long range caliber. Just guessing but it would likely be super sonic to 1600ish yards.
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I am not aware of that new Berger bullet as I do not reload now, but looking at noslers new LR long range 150 grain ammo, a BC on the 270 short mag of .625 is really interesting. This defiantly puts sonic range out there.... Reason I'm asking these questions, is I'm likely going to build a long range rig in the future and seem to be pushed to use 308 ... weather I wan to or not has not been determined.
 
6.5mm anything (260, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47) will be the new .308. The .308 is still around because everyone has it, and the military picked it up. As soon as the military picks something up it becomes the thing to have and there is a lot of support for it. Oh and it just plain works.

If your 270wsm has a decently heavy barrel on it, and you reload there is no real reason not to drop it into a nice stock or chassis. Depending on the twist rate run the heaviest bullets you can. Look at the Matrix ballistics .277 bullets. He has a 165 and 175 I believe.

Or keep your action and have a barrel in 6.5 WSM or 6.5 SAUM spun up for it. They will let you run the heaviest bullets in that caliber from a short action magazine without being restrictive. Apparently the 6.5 SAUM has a great barrel life if running H1000 powder.

If you want to build a long range rig, in my opinion go a different route than .308.
.260 Ackley Improved sounds nice to me.
 
Xikarzr said:
I am not aware of that new Berger bullet as I do not reload now, but looking at noslers new LR long range 150 grain ammo, a BC on the 270 short mag of .625 is really interesting. This defiantly puts sonic range out there.... Reason I'm asking these questions, is I'm likely going to build a long range rig in the future and seem to be pushed to use 308 ... weather I wan to or not has not been determined.
Click to expand...

If you want to use a short action give .260rem a try. Great ballistics for a short action caliber and decent barrel life from what I hear.

I've been shooting a 260 for about a year and its been great. I've had great performance out to 1100 yards.
 
CanuckR said:
6.5mm anything (260, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47) will be the new .308. The .308 is still around because everyone has it, and the military picked it up. As soon as the military picks something up it becomes the thing to have and there is a lot of support for it. Oh and it just plain works.

If your 270wsm has a decently heavy barrel on it, and you reload there is no real reason not to drop it into a nice stock or chassis. Depending on the twist rate run the heaviest bullets you can. Look at the Matrix ballistics .277 bullets. He has a 165 and 175 I believe.

Or keep your action and have a barrel in 6.5 WSM or 6.5 SAUM spun up for it. They will let you run the heaviest bullets in that caliber from a short action magazine without being restrictive. Apparently the 6.5 SAUM has a great barrel life if running H1000 powder.

If you want to build a long range rig, in my opinion go a different route than .308.
.260 Ackley Improved sounds nice to me.
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I'm going to leave the 270wsm now as my hunter when needed. But the discussion is something I want to have. I guess the main issue is this.... I don't want to go build a 308 and know in the back of my head that my hunting rifle could possibly shoot further out than what is considered a precision rifle.

Edited spelling
 
I currently shoot a 243AI. I shoot it 1000M no issues. I know it will go further when I can get the range.
I had planned on building a 284. or 7SAUM on a long action to go further without stepping up to a boomer.........then I ended up grabbing a 338 Edge barrel off the EE.
IMO if you want to build a nice long range rig I would look into a 7mm something or other. If you don't want to go 338.
 
Why 308? Why not. Like its been mentioned, barrel life for one, there's TONs of short action 308 chambered rifles out there to choose from, with more options for customization and builds. Lots of reloading flexibility. It's an extremely accurate round, there's a reason that it's the most widely used in competitions. How many 270, 30-06, 7mm shooters are topping the list? 308 pretty much dominates it. Never quite understood the obsession with fast flat trajectory. A slower bullet is a more accurate bullet, and more predictable (if you call 2700fps, "slow"). Not trying to bash or belittle other calibres but for accuracy or all around usefulness, hard to beat 308 as a chambering of choice.
 
supahdave said:
Why 308? Why not. Like its been mentioned, barrel life for one, there's TONs of short action 308 chambered rifles out there to choose from, with more options for customization and builds. Lots of reloading flexibility. It's an extremely accurate round, there's a reason that it's the most widely used in competitions. How many 270, 30-06, 7mm shooters are topping the list? 308 pretty much dominates it. Never quite understood the obsession with fast flat trajectory. A slower bullet is a more accurate bullet, and more predictable (if you call 2700fps, "slow"). Not trying to bash or belittle other calibres but for accuracy or all around usefulness, hard to beat 308 as a chambering of choice.
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This is exactly what I would like to discuss. You make some very good points. Barrel life for an f-tr or f-open guy I'm sure is very important, at 500-800 dollars for a new match barrel twice a year would make a huge difference. It's something I never though of until barrel life was mentioned earlier. It's a valid point.... I'm not sure I'd be shooting enough shots unless competing for it to factor as a huge deal in my precision rig. The other points are more functions of the question at hand. What I mean is why is there not a huge growing aftermarket parts market for other calibres, why has f tr class only stayed with 223 and 308 and not allowed other calibres outside of open class? Is a 308 really more accurate as you suggest? I don't think it's more accurate per say, maybe I'm wrong, I really don't know I guess, but my understanding is for 1000 yards and under I'm sure the 308 and other are all close, but when I look at all this expensive tactical long range rigs with 300o dollar glass and 2000 dollar chassis with a 308 action/barrel that can't shoot out as far as alot of other calibres that are close to same cost to reload. It might be a mute question, as I'll likely end up getting a 308 for all the reasons that have been said, but it's still confuses me that progression doesn't take over? Maybe We are used to computers and iPad being replaced with better models ever 6 months and that leaves me wondering where is the NEW in guns and why isn't it taking off?
 
supahdave said:
Why 308? Why not. Like its been mentioned, barrel life for one, there's TONs of short action 308 chambered rifles out there to choose from, with more options for customization and builds. Lots of reloading flexibility. It's an extremely accurate round, there's a reason that it's the most widely used in competitions. How many 270, 30-06, 7mm shooters are topping the list? 308 pretty much dominates it. Never quite understood the obsession with fast flat trajectory. A slower bullet is a more accurate bullet, and more predictable (if you call 2700fps, "slow"). Not trying to bash or belittle other calibres but for accuracy or all around usefulness, hard to beat 308 as a chambering of choice.
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Well explained dave still trying to figure out what comes after 223 for me also..in accuracy and loading ease plus cost
 
Flatter is not more accurate. If you throw a rock fast or slow in different trajectories, if they land on the exact same spot is any method of delivering that rock to the target more accurate? If you know the ballistics of your round, and are able to calculate and compensate for wind, spindrift, drop etc and have good consistent hand loads and do your part to be a consistent shooter, the bullet will arrive reliably on target every time, who cares HOW it gets there.

lets look at 3006 vs 308, they are very much alike. However the 308 is on average TWICE as accurate as 3006, which has MORE velocity, and so is slightly flatter. Using the logic, flatter faster more accurate is flawed. When you hear "308 is more inherently accurate" it really is. Why inherent? Because it's a shorter cartridge with LESS AIR gap. The powder burns more evenly and efficiently in a 308 case than it does in a 3006 or 270. With a bit less powder you also have less recoil which makes you less likely to get thrown off during recoil and takes more human error out of the equation.

If your worried about lack of killing power for hunting purposes which is the argument made for the hotter, taller magnum belted cartridges, 308 will take down pretty much anything on this side of the world that you'd need to shoot, and do it up to distances that you don't need to be trying to kill anything further than. If you want to kill something your going to get in as close as possible, too many factors when your hunting to try and pull off a 900+yard hero shot just cause your sporting a 338 lapua and want bragging rights.
 
W
supahdave said:
Why 308? Why not. Like its been mentioned, barrel life for one, there's TONs of short action 308 chambered rifles out there to choose from, with more options for customization and builds. Lots of reloading flexibility. It's an extremely accurate round, there's a reason that it's the most widely used in competitions. How many 270, 30-06, 7mm shooters are topping the list? 308 pretty much dominates it. Never quite understood the obsession with fast flat trajectory. A slower bullet is a more accurate bullet, and more predictable (if you call 2700fps, "slow"). Not trying to bash or belittle other calibres but for accuracy or all around usefulness, hard to beat 308 as a chambering of choice.
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+1! I could not have said that better. I chose .308 for my calibre of choice for these exact reasons! My goal is 1000m and not really beyond that. Precision...repeatability is my reason for 1k distance. Yes, I'd like to go further and try the "###y" calibres. But, I'm not finished having fun with .308. I have 4 precision rifles in this calibre. I have no desire for anything else.

But, I will spot for those shooting a mile and beyond. That's fun too!
 
supahdave said:
However the 308 is on average TWICE as accurate as 3006.
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That is interesting. Do you have any sources for info and tests backing that up?

You know 67% of all statistics are made up on the spot. ;)

In all seriousness with a factory gun the caliber won't dictate the "accuracy potential".
 
Has anyone mentioned wind yet? That is where the 308 gets beat by the 6.5 calibers, wind drift.
 
J996 said:
Has anyone mentioned wind yet? That is where the 308 gets beat by the 6.5 calibers, wind drift.
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That's where the fun factor rises. Yes, it can be frustrating. But wind teaches us things that the calm cannot.

I was out at the Longest Mile in Edson this past Saturday. The wind was 30kph+. I only made hits at 300, 400, and 500 yards. Adjusting 3moa for wind at 500 yards was very enlightening. (That's over 15 inches of hold over.)
 
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