James, mine has full chokes, 2 3/4" chambers in 30" Krupp barrels.
My Great-Grandfather's A.H. Fox AE Grade
- Thread starter normanmclean
- Start date
James, mine has full chokes, 2 3/4" chambers in 30" Krupp barrels.
Yes, I am a member of the AH Fox Collector's Association.
winchester12
CGN Regular
- Location
- Chatham ontario
Hey Norman ... That is a very nice early AE grade. I just got a early A grade 20 ga fox with 28" krupp barrels. Mine was made in 1912 and came with a period canvas and leather case.I always wanted a 16/20 fox sxs.It has 2 and 1/2" chambers though and I'm thinking of having the chambers and forcing cones lengthened .
Very very nice. I am currently searching for just the right period case to go with this gun as well.
2"1/2 chambers is tough. A lot of guys prefer to leave them as is and shoot 'RST' shells, etc.
Also just picked up another very early A grade 12 gauge circa 1908. Needs some restoration. Looking forward to it.
You aren't asking for it but here's advice anyway. Don't lengthen the chambers. Forcing cones okay but not chambers. Buying 2 1/2 shells from Kent / Gamebore is easy enough to do. And when you buy Gamebores you are also assured you are running appropriate lower pressures through the tubes.
Also are you sure they are 2 1/2". Foxes that aren't 2 3/4 are more typically 2 5/8". And 2 3/4" plastic hulls can be used safely in a 2 5/8 chamber designed for paper hulls.
winchester12
CGN Regular
- Location
- Chatham ontario
My fox is a nice surviver that hasn't been shot much but carried alot. I wish it had some nice provenance like yours.I haven't had much luck finding 2.5" shells. I could make some up.I was going
to have
at lea
st the
forcing cones lengthened.
James, what are the chances that we would both inherit our great-grandfather's early Fox A grade in the same year?
Jason, I didn't mention it in my earlier post but I sure was thinking it. Really amazing actually. I think it's a rare enough event by itself and that two people discover they have the same gun, from very close to the same era, inherited the same way, same year, each ultimately from a great grandfather.....
My father was dedicated M12 16 gauge hunter. Never saw him use anything else. There was just always this old double in the back of the closet. And one day, for who knows what reason, I was over visiting him about 13 years ago and pulled the "old double" out and had a look at it for the first time in 25 years. Suddenly I was hooked. Just like that!
Snuck it out of the house one day and sent it off for a full restoration by one of the best smiths in the country. It came back 5 months later and my brother and I presented it back to my dad with the restoration as a birthday gift. He was speechless, as were my brother and I, because the transformation was unbelievable. Luckily, while it had been ignored for 60 years, it hadn't been abused. A few years later, after an eye injury (at age 79) put an end to my dad's hunting, he gave me the gun.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
I allso would not lenghten the chambers because of the availabllilty of of RST and Gamebore ammo.
Clay at Prophet River sells 2 1/2" RST.
There also is lots of data put there for 2 1/2" ammo, and it is super easy to make by cutting 2 3/4" hulls down and either roll or fold crimping.
MEC sells a 2 1/2" adapter for their single stage presses, but I have a Lee had die that was shortened to 2 1/2" as well, and works super for that.
My Remington SXS16 had a case and rod just like that, as well, I love those old guns.
Cat
Last edited:
winchester12
CGN Regular
- Location
- Chatham ontario
I checked out the RST shells. Prophet river only has #5 shot and a flat delivered to ontario is almost $300. There $20.99 a box. I reload for all guages. I could make 2.5" shells. I normally make a nice light 3/4oz for 20ga in a 2.75" shell. What are your thoughts about shooting that load with my 2.5" chambers? There are some people that do and they are supported by some articles in the double gun journal.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
Here is some info from a thread running on doublegunshop right now regarding long shells in short chambers.
Many thanks to Bill Johnson for scanning and sending “Long Shells in Short Chambers”, Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in “Finding Out for Myself” Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001
The test barrel was a ‘heavy’ Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1” from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16” from the breech.
Tests were performed:
1. 2 1/2” chamber with a 7/16” forcing cone – “British chamber” (BC)
2. 2 1/2” chamber with a 1 1/4” forcing cone – “Modified British chamber” (MBC)
3. 2 3/4” chamber with a 1” forcing cone – “American Chamber” (AC)
Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots
LOADS
1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps in the 2 3/4” chamber
2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps
I only include the standard target or game loads that were tested
……..BC……...MBC…....AC…..Difference BCvsAC
1…..5725…….5905…..4834……891 psi
2…..6225…….6065…..5009……1216 psi
3…..5865…….5325…..5263……602 psi…..“long cones do reduce pressure”
4…..5845…….5665…..5058……787 psi
5…..7805…….7845…..7577……228 psi
6….11,125….11,045…10,787…338 psi
7…..6892…….6805…..5953……939 psi
8…..8765…….8545…..7870……895 psi
9…..5405…….5265…..4603……802 psi
10…6765…….6365…..6380……385 psi
Interpretation and caution:
1. Results in light British 12b or American small bore barrels may be different.
2. Results in YOUR barrel would require drilling the chamber for the transducer thereby destroying your gun.
3. Paper hulls with star crimps showed little difference compared to plastic hulls. NO roll crimp paper hulls were tested.
4. The increase in pressure comparing 1 oz., 1 1/8 oz., and 1 1/4 oz. loads was similar.
5. Longer cones MAY reduce pressure. This was NOT a comparison of standard 1” with 2 1/2” cones however.
6. “Shooting 2 3/4” shells in 2 1/2” chambers does make them produce more pressure-but in most cases it is less than a 1000 psi increase. I see no reason, related to safety, to modify an original 2 1/2” chambered gun to shoot 2 3/4” shells, if the 2 3/4” load you intend to use would develop pressure that is safe in that gun, when fired in a standard chamber!”
7. “We found that lengthening the forcing cone in a 2 1/2” chamber usually helps mitigate the pressure increase that comes from shooting 2 3/4” or 3” shells in the short chamber.”
8. “Shooting heavy 2 3/4” loads in a light gun is a dumb thing to do. Shooting 3” magnum duck loads is even dumber.”
9. This is not a study of the effect on RECOIL of shooting long shells in short chambers. Vintage 20g doubles may have chambers shorter than 2 1/2”, and it has been my experience that recoil is markedly increased if 2 3/4” shells are used.
Many thanks to Bill Johnson for scanning and sending “Long Shells in Short Chambers”, Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust in “Finding Out for Myself” Part V, Double Gun Journal, Winter 2001
The test barrel was a ‘heavy’ Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1” from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16” from the breech.
Tests were performed:
1. 2 1/2” chamber with a 7/16” forcing cone – “British chamber” (BC)
2. 2 1/2” chamber with a 1 1/4” forcing cone – “Modified British chamber” (MBC)
3. 2 3/4” chamber with a 1” forcing cone – “American Chamber” (AC)
Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots
LOADS
1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps in the 2 3/4” chamber
2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps
I only include the standard target or game loads that were tested
……..BC……...MBC…....AC…..Difference BCvsAC
1…..5725…….5905…..4834……891 psi
2…..6225…….6065…..5009……1216 psi
3…..5865…….5325…..5263……602 psi…..“long cones do reduce pressure”
4…..5845…….5665…..5058……787 psi
5…..7805…….7845…..7577……228 psi
6….11,125….11,045…10,787…338 psi
7…..6892…….6805…..5953……939 psi
8…..8765…….8545…..7870……895 psi
9…..5405…….5265…..4603……802 psi
10…6765…….6365…..6380……385 psi
Interpretation and caution:
1. Results in light British 12b or American small bore barrels may be different.
2. Results in YOUR barrel would require drilling the chamber for the transducer thereby destroying your gun.
3. Paper hulls with star crimps showed little difference compared to plastic hulls. NO roll crimp paper hulls were tested.
4. The increase in pressure comparing 1 oz., 1 1/8 oz., and 1 1/4 oz. loads was similar.
5. Longer cones MAY reduce pressure. This was NOT a comparison of standard 1” with 2 1/2” cones however.
6. “Shooting 2 3/4” shells in 2 1/2” chambers does make them produce more pressure-but in most cases it is less than a 1000 psi increase. I see no reason, related to safety, to modify an original 2 1/2” chambered gun to shoot 2 3/4” shells, if the 2 3/4” load you intend to use would develop pressure that is safe in that gun, when fired in a standard chamber!”
7. “We found that lengthening the forcing cone in a 2 1/2” chamber usually helps mitigate the pressure increase that comes from shooting 2 3/4” or 3” shells in the short chamber.”
8. “Shooting heavy 2 3/4” loads in a light gun is a dumb thing to do. Shooting 3” magnum duck loads is even dumber.”
9. This is not a study of the effect on RECOIL of shooting long shells in short chambers. Vintage 20g doubles may have chambers shorter than 2 1/2”, and it has been my experience that recoil is markedly increased if 2 3/4” shells are used.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
Check with Wess at Ellwood Epps for Gamebore 2 1/2" and RST, I know they used to sell gamebore traditional loads .
If yor reload however, it's a simple thing to make 2 1/2" ammo, for sure.
BPI has lots of data
Cat
winchester12
CGN Regular
- Location
- Chatham ontario
Where are you from and where were you able to get the gamebores?
If you are prepared to buy a flat most Kent dealers will order it in for you. Call Kent Canada. They are extremely helpful.
That old Pachymar pad is still plenty comfortable on my shoulder!
Calgary, I did exactly what Canvasback suggests. I found a local dealer from the Kent website and asked them to bring a case in. Shot sizes in Canada are 1 size larger than UK (so a Canadian 7 is a UK 6). Took only 3-4 weeks or so. Worth it for the certainty...
