Dq

On the note of dump DQ's... Action shooting games are supposed to mimic practical shooting. Now, imagine you are involved in a real scenario, where you are a super-SWAT team member and just eliminated a bunch of terrorists in a building. At the end of it, would you dump half a mag into the building wall "just because"?

Now, I know we're miles and miles away from what real soldiers and cops do in the field, but we gotta maintain a tenuous connection to reality. To further illustrate the concept.. Imagine a street gang invades your farm, you deal with them and then you're explaining things to the police..

"On the way to my kids' room, I got the pistol out of the safe, loaded a mag, saw one big dude wearing baggy clothes, holding a knife in the kitchen. I shot him twice, he went down, and that's where I saw a guy running down the stairs, carrying a pipe. I put 2 rounds in him, he also went down, and at the top of the staircase, another guy with a pistol came over to investigate.. I shot him in the head once, he collapsed, I changed mags and right in my youngest daughter's room, one more guy was holding her hostage. So, I took careful aim and put him down, too. Then, for whatever reason, I dumped the remaining 10 rounds into the wall (drywall, insulation, vinyl siding) facing my neighbour's house and called you guys." The cops would be more than happy to thank you with a few, well-deserved, criminal charges.

Loaded, round chambered, safety on, is the most realistic way to leave your guns in such situations and IMO, all regulating bodies should strive to make it safe to dump the gun in that condition.
 
TRaTSeRiF said:
On the note of dump DQ's... Action shooting games are supposed to mimic practical shooting. Now, imagine you are involved in a real scenario, where you are a super-SWAT team member and just eliminated a bunch of terrorists in a building. At the end of it, would you dump half a mag into the building wall "just because"?

Now, I know we're miles and miles away from what real soldiers and cops do in the field, but we gotta maintain a tenuous connection to reality. To further illustrate the concept.. Imagine a street gang invades your farm, you deal with them and then you're explaining things to the police..

"On the way to my kids' room, I got the pistol out of the safe, loaded a mag, saw one big dude wearing baggy clothes, holding a knife in the kitchen. I shot him twice, he went down, and that's where I saw a guy running down the stairs, carrying a pipe. I put 2 rounds in him, he also went down, and at the top of the staircase, another guy with a pistol came over to investigate.. I shot him in the head once, he collapsed, I changed mags and right in my youngest daughter's room, one more guy was holding her hostage. So, I took careful aim and put him down, too. Then, for whatever reason, I dumped the remaining 10 rounds into the wall (drywall, insulation, vinyl siding) facing my neighbour's house and called you guys." The cops would be more than happy to thank you with a few, well-deserved, criminal charges.

Loaded, round chambered, safety on, is the most realistic way to leave your guns in such situations and IMO, all regulating bodies should strive to make it safe to dump the gun in that condition.
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I don't know about you, but I try to apply "WWJCD" (What Would Jeff Cooper Do) to every existing rule. Looking through that filter helps clarify things for me, quite nicely. Yes, we have a bit of fun in making up some silly stages and having some silly themes for matches, but bottom line is, that action shooting came from what JC wanted to turn into realistic training for people putting their lives on the line.
 
TRaTSeRiF said:
I don't know about you, but I try to apply "WWJCD" (What Would Jeff Cooper Do) to every existing rule. Looking through that filter helps clarify things for me, quite nicely. Yes, we have a bit of fun in making up some silly stages and having some silly themes for matches, but bottom line is, that action shooting came from what JC wanted to turn into realistic training for people putting their lives on the line.
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gaming is gaming.... you want training, go take a course.
 
TinkerBell said:
gaming is gaming.... you want training, go take a course.
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True, but we still gotta remember our roots and whenever legal and safety considerations allow it, we should keep that little grain of "Practical" in our world. I personally choose to shoot Production and Tac Ops to keep my gear a bit more realistic, but I'm not particularly interested in becoming an operating operator operational in operations.. Won't prevent me from making fun of the PPC "loads" or Open Christmas trees, though :cool:
 
And before more images of Patrick Stewart get posted in this thread, may I direct you ladies and gents to the IPSC constitution, found at https://www.ipsc.org/ipsc/constitution.php

Some of the elements relevant to this sideline are:

Practical competition is diverse. Within the limits of realism, problems are constantly changed, never permitting unrealistic specialisation of either technique or equipment.
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Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical firearms and equipment. Any item of equipment, or modification to equipment, which sacrifices practical functionality for a competitive advantage contravenes the principles of the sport.
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The challenge presented in practical competition must be realistic. Courses of Fire must follow a practical rationale, and simulate sensible hypothetical situations in which firearms might reasonably be used.
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I always LoL thinking about this when I shoot an IPSC match, but it's all in good fun. Still, we need to remember our roots from time to time, even if it's on special holidays :cool:
 
mrclean said:
Have a look at principle number one while you are at it.
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I'm looking forward to reading your elaboration of:
Practical competition is open to all reputable persons without regard to occupation, it may specifically not be limited to public servants.
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and why it pertains to this discussion. I shoot with people from all walks of life, whether they are public servants, blue collar workers, students, retired, homemakers or white collar workers. They all have something to add to the action shooting sports.
 
TRaTSeRiF said:
And before more images of Patrick Stewart get posted in this thread, may I direct you ladies and gents to the IPSC constitution, found at https://www.ipsc.org/ipsc/constitution.php

Some of the elements relevant to this sideline are:







I always LoL thinking about this when I shoot an IPSC match, but it's all in good fun. Still, we need to remember our roots from time to time, even if it's on special holidays :cool:
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Well there goes open, lol...
 
wasrupzuk said:
Well there goes open, lol...
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Lol based on the constitution, yes... But one can still make a good argument for Open as it pushes the equipment to its limits and some of that spills into pedestrian designs. Kinda like Formula 1 of shooting.

I just think we should keep some tenuous grip with reality. From a real-life engagement perspective, it's not unreasonable to keep the rifle loaded with safety engaged before transitioning to the shotgun (which was the catalyst for this discussion). Stages can certainly be designed so it can be done while still satisfying the most important consideration in all shooting games - safety.
 
TRaTSeRiF said:
True, but we still gotta remember our roots and whenever legal and safety considerations allow it, we should keep that little grain of "Practical" in our world. I personally choose to shoot Production and Tac Ops to keep my gear a bit more realistic, but I'm not particularly interested in becoming an operating operator operational in operations.. Won't prevent me from making fun of the PPC "loads" or Open Christmas trees, though :cool:
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Who is this 'we' you are talking about? How many matches have you hosted?
 
Onagoth said:
Who is this 'we' you are talking about? How many matches have you hosted?
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Based on your attitude displayed in this post, I'll assume that you don't have any more valid arguments to contribute to this discussion. I'll listen to those any time. I am still new to the game but I contribute as much as I can and don't feel the need to prove myself to you or anyone else for that matter.
 
TRaTSeRiF said:
Lol based on the constitution, yes... But one can still make a good argument for Open as it pushes the equipment to its limits and some of that spills into pedestrian designs. Kinda like Formula 1 of shooting.

I just think we should keep some tenuous grip with reality. From a real-life engagement perspective, it's not unreasonable to keep the rifle loaded with safety engaged before transitioning to the shotgun (which was the catalyst for this discussion). Stages can certainly be designed so it can be done while still satisfying the most important consideration in all shooting games - safety.
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I was making an attempt at humor...
IPSC has not been practical in years and with every rule book seems to get further away from it.
I'm OK with that- to a degree; I'm a sports shooting enthusiast and don't see the game as anything more than that.
IMO if you want military type training with 2 way range scenarios there are places to do that; perhaps joining up.
If everyone has to ground the firearm the same way then the game is the same whether it gets grounded live with the safety on or empty with the action open.
Moving away from a live firearm is unreasonable- to consider yourself still being safe is incorrect.
Just an opinion of mine, YMMV.
 
wasrupzuk said:
I was making an attempt at humor...
IPSC has not been practical in years and with every rule book seems to get further away from it.
I'm OK with that- to a degree; I'm a sports shooting enthusiast and don't see the game as anything more than that.
IMO if you want military type training with 2 way range scenarios there are places to do that; perhaps joining up.
If everyone has to ground the firearm the same way then the game is the same whether it gets grounded live with the safety on or empty with the action open.
Moving away from a live firearm is unreasonable- to consider yourself still being safe is incorrect.
Just an opinion of mine, YMMV.
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Appreciated. Everyone has their view on where we are, where we're heading and where we should be heading and it's not like anyone's being unreasonable. Yours was expressed rationally and eloquently and I thank you for that. There's plenty of room for all of us.

I'm thinking that on one end, we should still remember that JC popularized "practical" shooting because he whisky-tango-foxtrotted on just banging away at a fixed distance target from a line. Over the years a lot of gaming found its way into action shooting sports and I'm also fine with that. I'm not saying that we should do everything the Chris Costa (or whoever's the current tacticool flavour of the day) way. Actually, that would be bad for the sports in this discussion as they'd be dictated by outside bodies and also, it would eliminate the fresh perspective that we bring to the table. Guys like Dan Horner pick up what they learn from our community and occasionally go out to test it in the field - at the same time, we're quick to pounce on anything that they bring to the table.

However, I disagree with the point that moving away from a live firearm is ALWAYS unsafe. It's done safely without any incidents in matches all over the world. I see the barrel as a kind of a gaming/safety compromise to the sling. A lot of things would be considered unsafe if they were performed outside of a controlled environment where skilled competitors are under RO and other match officials' constant supervision.

Edit: Additional note: This should be by no means construed as me whining about getting DQ'd and I'm sure the match organizers/other attendees present know better - just clarifying it for everyone else out there. If I show up at your match, I agree to play by your rules. If I violate those rules, it's 100% on me along with the consequences. The only person to blame is Mr. TRaTSeRiF

While the point this thread devolved into was raised by someone else, I happen to like it and see plenty of good reasons why it might not be a bad idea to implement it on our side of the border, with the usual caveats (BoD's and CFO's).
 
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DQ is sad and can bring emotion... that anyone deal differently... but I have a lot of respect for the one that stay and work after been DQ... have been DQ by myself once... and I was disappointed of my safety mistake... I was looking to leave as soon as possible to deal with it alone!!!

But to me, we don't play with safety... and DQ to me is less negative than to learn from someone, that your shooter was DQ and I didn't see it, or see it without being sure what I saw...
This is negative, because the shooter will not learn from his mistake, because I didn't see it or call it :(

We are human been!

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